arm/disarm track confusion
From quick search I found some confusing references how this feature might behave:
=== Arm track determines whether the track is armed or not. Only the armed tracks are affected by editing operations. Make sure you have enough armed destination tracks when you paste or splice material or some tracks in the material will get left out. In addition to restricting editing operations, the armed tracks in combination with the active region determine where material is inserted when loading files. If the files are loaded with one of the insertion strategies which doesn't delete the existing project, the armed tracks will be used as destination tracks. Press Tab while the cursor is anywhere over a track to toggle the track arming status. Press Shift-Tab while the cursor is over a track to toggle the arming status of every other track. === from http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra/cinelerra.html how you can wonder if _attach effect_ is editing operation or not... https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=433 from what I read so far main worry was about _moving_ pieces of media on tracks around, not effect insert per se. I also suspect such strange/uncommon system of working with audio partially comes from broadcast2000 times (you can find image of it with two 5.1 tracks from dvd!). mono/stereo is easy and most commonly used. But 5.1 and higher exist, and obviously more complex to work with. === Make sure all the tracks are “armed” – that is, each of the “Arm track” icons next to the track are highlighted. Until a track is armed, you are mostly unable to edit that track. === from https://www.calcmaster.net/cinelerra/forgotten-guide/04-media-to-tracks/ {probably copy/paste from cv and earlier manuals..} *mostly* unable to edit this track is interesting statement.... https://cinelerra.skolelinux.narkive.com/YlRvb3Hu/cincvs-cinelerra-on-ubuntu "edit actions manipulate /all/ clips on all armed tracks" - from 2006... so it seems it was _not quite_ lock track behavior... and finally article from 2010.. I think CinGG fixed most/all of most problematic points.. === Stuff it does that I'm indifferent to So there's also some stuff that's different, that I don't love and don't hate: - "Arming" tracks. By default, all tracks are "armed". This means that the little red button next to them is highlighted and you can affect those tracks with editing decisions. If you're inserting stuff then the highest level track that's armed is where the clip ends up. If you're deleting, trimming, highlighting, adding effects, etc., then your decisions apply to ALL ARMED TRACKS. Which gets real confusing real fast when you realise you've accidentally cut three seconds out of your audio track or put an effect on a track you didn't mean too, or trimmed the wrong clip. It's VERY IMPORTANT to only arm the tracks you're using at that time. Usually just one at a time unless you're moving a clip from one track to another. There are times when this is very useful, like if I do have two adjacent clips on different tracks and want to nudge them both back or forward without losing their adjacency. Or if you want to make sure more than one track fades out at exactly the same time, or has the exact same effect (including keyframes) applied. But also it is often confusing. I often have more tracks than I can comfortably see in the size of the timeline window that I'm comfortable using. If I forget what I'm doing, I might accidentally screw up another track and then I have to go find where how and what the hell I've done after I've rendered it all screwed up. I don't hate this method. Because when I do remember what I'm doing (which is most of the time), it really does help make sure that tracks you aren't currently using are "safe" from getting screwed up. You can lock things down tight. But equally I'm not in love with it. === from https://beccatoria.dreamwidth.org/111857.html?thread=1540337&style=site Have fun!
Andrew, I don't see any confusion about Armed/Disarmed track. When the new tool "GANG modes" (Gang None, Gang Channels, Gang Media) was implemented it has been discussed more in deeper between Users(Glen MacArthur in the lead, if I remember right). GANG modes is a special feature. When you are in "Gang None" mode the usual behaviour is used for the Armed/Disarmed tracks. When you are using "Gang Channels" and "Gang Media" the Master track changes the behaviour of its Slave track (as described in the Manual where the Users have discussed, at that time). For the Users that use this mode it is really useful and right, because it works so in other software. Yes, it may seems strange at the first but, like other complex functions in Cinelerra-GG, this is another good one. IgorBeg Il 08/08/2021 06:44, Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin ha scritto:
From quick search I found some confusing references how this feature might behave:
=== Arm track determines whether the track is armed or not. Only the armed tracks are affected by editing operations. Make sure you have enough armed destination tracks when you paste or splice material or some tracks in the material will get left out. In addition to restricting editing operations, the armed tracks in combination with the active region determine where material is inserted when loading files. If the files are loaded with one of the insertion strategies which doesn't delete the existing project, the armed tracks will be used as destination tracks.
Press Tab while the cursor is anywhere over a track to toggle the track arming status.
Press Shift-Tab while the cursor is over a track to toggle the arming status of every other track. ===
from http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra/cinelerra.html
how you can wonder if _attach effect_ is editing operation or not...
https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=433
from what I read so far main worry was about _moving_ pieces of media on tracks around, not effect insert per se.
I also suspect such strange/uncommon system of working with audio partially comes from broadcast2000 times (you can find image of it with two 5.1 tracks from dvd!). mono/stereo is easy and most commonly used. But 5.1 and higher exist, and obviously more complex to work with.
=== Make sure all the tracks are “armed” – that is, each of the “Arm track” icons next to the track are highlighted. Until a track is armed, you are mostly unable to edit that track.
===
from https://www.calcmaster.net/cinelerra/forgotten-guide/04-media-to-tracks/
{probably copy/paste from cv and earlier manuals..}
*mostly* unable to edit this track is interesting statement....
https://cinelerra.skolelinux.narkive.com/YlRvb3Hu/cincvs-cinelerra-on-ubuntu "edit actions manipulate /all/ clips on all armed tracks" - from 2006...
so it seems it was _not quite_ lock track behavior...
and finally article from 2010.. I think CinGG fixed most/all of most problematic points..
=== Stuff it does that I'm indifferent to So there's also some stuff that's different, that I don't love and don't hate:
- "Arming" tracks. By default, all tracks are "armed". This means that the little red button next to them is highlighted and you can affect those tracks with editing decisions. If you're inserting stuff then the highest level track that's armed is where the clip ends up. If you're deleting, trimming, highlighting, adding effects, etc., then your decisions apply to ALL ARMED TRACKS. Which gets real confusing real fast when you realise you've accidentally cut three seconds out of your audio track or put an effect on a track you didn't mean too, or trimmed the wrong clip. It's VERY IMPORTANT to only arm the tracks you're using at that time. Usually just one at a time unless you're moving a clip from one track to another. There are times when this is very useful, like if I do have two adjacent clips on different tracks and want to nudge them both back or forward without losing their adjacency. Or if you want to make sure more than one track fades out at exactly the same time, or has the exact same effect (including keyframes) applied. But also it is often confusing. I often have more tracks than I can comfortably see in the size of the timeline window that I'm comfortable using. If I forget what I'm doing, I might accidentally screw up another track and then I have to go find where how and what the hell I've done after I've rendered it all screwed up. I don't hate this method. Because when I do remember what I'm doing (which is most of the time), it really does help make sure that tracks you aren't currently using are "safe" from getting screwed up. You can lock things down tight. But equally I'm not in love with it. ===
from https://beccatoria.dreamwidth.org/111857.html?thread=1540337&style=site <https://beccatoria.dreamwidth.org/111857.html?thread=1540337&style=site>
Have fun!
On Sunday, August 8, 2021, Igor BEGHETTO via Cin <[email protected]> wrote:
Andrew, I don't see any confusion about Armed/Disarmed track.
I was thinking about older definition of arming/disarming feature. Guess attaching or not effects was not primary concern when this feature was designed. It seems in Ardour you 'arm' tracks if you want incoming sound/music recorded on them, and in Cinelerra this idea was extended to sort-of editing lock...
When the new tool "GANG modes" (Gang None, Gang Channels, Gang Media) was implemented it has been discussed more in deeper between Users(Glen MacArthur in the lead, if I remember right). GANG modes is a special feature. When you are in "Gang None" mode the usual behaviour is used for the Armed/Disarmed tracks. When you are using "Gang Channels" and "Gang Media" the Master track changes the behaviour of its Slave track (as described in the Manual where the Users have discussed, at that time). For the Users that use this mode it is really useful and right, because it works so in other software. Yes, it may seems strange at the first but, like other complex functions in Cinelerra-GG, this is another good one.
IgorBeg
Il 08/08/2021 06:44, Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin ha scritto:
From quick search I found some confusing references how this feature might behave:
=== Arm track determines whether the track is armed or not. Only the armed tracks are affected by editing operations. Make sure you have enough armed destination tracks when you paste or splice material or some tracks in the material will get left out. In addition to restricting editing operations, the armed tracks in combination with the active region determine where material is inserted when loading files. If the files are loaded with one of the insertion strategies which doesn't delete the existing project, the armed tracks will be used as destination tracks.
Press Tab while the cursor is anywhere over a track to toggle the track arming status.
Press Shift-Tab while the cursor is over a track to toggle the arming status of every other track. ===
from http://heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra/cinelerra.html
how you can wonder if _attach effect_ is editing operation or not...
https://www.cinelerra-gg.org/bugtracker/view.php?id=433
from what I read so far main worry was about _moving_ pieces of media on tracks around, not effect insert per se.
I also suspect such strange/uncommon system of working with audio partially comes from broadcast2000 times (you can find image of it with two 5.1 tracks from dvd!). mono/stereo is easy and most commonly used. But 5.1 and higher exist, and obviously more complex to work with.
=== Make sure all the tracks are “armed” – that is, each of the “Arm track” icons next to the track are highlighted. Until a track is armed, you are mostly unable to edit that track.
===
from https://www.calcmaster.net/cinelerra/forgotten-guide/04-medi a-to-tracks/
{probably copy/paste from cv and earlier manuals..}
*mostly* unable to edit this track is interesting statement....
https://cinelerra.skolelinux.narkive.com/YlRvb3Hu/cincvs-cin elerra-on-ubuntu "edit actions manipulate /all/ clips on all armed tracks" - from 2006...
so it seems it was _not quite_ lock track behavior...
and finally article from 2010.. I think CinGG fixed most/all of most problematic points..
=== Stuff it does that I'm indifferent to So there's also some stuff that's different, that I don't love and don't hate:
- "Arming" tracks. By default, all tracks are "armed". This means that the little red button next to them is highlighted and you can affect those tracks with editing decisions. If you're inserting stuff then the highest level track that's armed is where the clip ends up. If you're deleting, trimming, highlighting, adding effects, etc., then your decisions apply to ALL ARMED TRACKS. Which gets real confusing real fast when you realise you've accidentally cut three seconds out of your audio track or put an effect on a track you didn't mean too, or trimmed the wrong clip. It's VERY IMPORTANT to only arm the tracks you're using at that time. Usually just one at a time unless you're moving a clip from one track to another. There are times when this is very useful, like if I do have two adjacent clips on different tracks and want to nudge them both back or forward without losing their adjacency. Or if you want to make sure more than one track fades out at exactly the same time, or has the exact same effect (including keyframes) applied. But also it is often confusing. I often have more tracks than I can comfortably see in the size of the timeline window that I'm comfortable using. If I forget what I'm doing, I might accidentally screw up another track and then I have to go find where how and what the hell I've done after I've rendered it all screwed up. I don't hate this method. Because when I do remember what I'm doing (which is most of the time), it really does help make sure that tracks you aren't currently using are "safe" from getting screwed up. You can lock things down tight. But equally I'm not in love with it. ===
from https://beccatoria.dreamwidth.org/111857.html?thread=1540337 &style=site <https://beccatoria.dreamwidth.org/111857.html?thread= 1540337&style=site>
Have fun!
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
I'll try to summarize the situation for the little I remember (correct me if I'm wrong): those who work with audio always have to deal with a very large number of tracks that make it difficult to display on the timeline. Glen requested (BT#433) a feature to tie the tracks (channels) into a single line (track). Ardour does it using only one line (track) for the "n" channels; instead in Cinelerra each channel is an independent track. GG came up with the usual ingenious (original and complicated!) idea of Master/Slave tracks and Gang modes. I had hoped that it would become a way to link video tracks with their audio tracks, so that sync would not be lost during editing, but it was not possible! If we are talking about Gang modes then we are talking about audio tracks and in this case the behavior is different from the Cinelerra standard: the slaves (hidden) tracks undergo the same editing as the master track regardless of whether they are armed or disarmed (BT#577). I, who don't do audio mixing/editing, find it antintuitive, because I'm used to Cinelerra's std behavior, but it's actually the normal behavior of DAWs that group the various channels in a line and it doesn't make sense to think of them as some armed and some not. Perhaps this should be explained better in the manual. Moreover, if we want to implement the standard behavior of Cinerella, so that an unarmed track is never modified whether it is visible or not, we must be sure that it is a separate function from the current Gang modes, creating a new type of gang and explaining very well its function, because the risk of confusion is great and the subject is already complicated. Patches 1 and 2 are great because they simply add the ability to use In/Out points with "Attach effects". Patches 3, 0004 and 0005 (I haven't tried this one yet) should be part of a new Gang mode (Gang arm? Gang Cin? Gang Std?). PS: I tried to put the 0005 patch without recompiling, but I don't see any difference. Do I need to recompile?
On Sunday, August 8, 2021, Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
I'll try to summarize the situation for the little I remember (correct me if I'm wrong): those who work with audio always have to deal with a very large number of tracks that make it difficult to display on the timeline. Glen requested (BT#433) a feature to tie the tracks (channels) into a single line (track). Ardour does it using only one line (track) for the "n" channels; instead in Cinelerra each channel is an independent track. GG came up with the usual ingenious (original and complicated!) idea of Master/Slave tracks and Gang modes. I had hoped that it would become a way to link video tracks with their audio tracks, so that sync would not be lost during editing, but it was not possible!
may be it can be done.. you mean just gang (link) mode between all edits on video + all edits on few selectable audio tracks? so you can move them as group AND this group become immune to media/clip insert and immune to its components sliding around in this mode? or something else?
If we are talking about Gang modes then we are talking about audio tracks and in this case the behavior is different from the Cinelerra standard: the slaves (hidden) tracks undergo the same editing as the master track regardless of whether they are armed or disarmed (BT#577). I, who don't do audio mixing/editing, find it antintuitive, because I'm used to Cinelerra's std behavior, but it's actually the normal behavior of DAWs that group the various channels in a line and it doesn't make sense to think of them as some armed and some not. Perhaps this should be explained better in the manual. Moreover, if we want to implement the standard behavior of Cinerella, so that an unarmed track is never modified whether it is visible or not, we must be sure that it is a separate function from the current Gang modes, creating a new type of gang and explaining very well its function, because the risk of confusion is great and the subject is already complicated. Patches 1 and 2 are great because they simply add the ability to use In/Out points with "Attach effects". Patches 3, 0004 and 0005 (I haven't tried this one yet) should be part of a new Gang mode (Gang arm? Gang Cin? Gang Std?).
yeah, I had same idea back in time, it seems! but without any code to back my words... now at least I have some code for starting.
PS: I tried to put the 0005 patch without recompiling, but I don't see any difference. Do I need to recompile?
yes, and then try to play with new preference in .bcast5/Cinelerra_rc: ARMED_IN_GANG_MODE 0 0 is default and sets behavior as described in manual 1 (or any non-0) forces at least effect inserts to respect armed/unarmed state even in gang modes media and channel. (but because this is generic code other actions also should now respect armed/unarmed state) there is no propagation to preferences currently, but if you or someone else thinks such 'mode 4' can be useful I'll monkey around in code some more...
Ohoo my God! AndrePaz wrote:
Moreover, if we want to implement the standard behavior of Cinerella, so that an unarmed track is never modified whether it is visible or not, we must be sure that it is a separate function from the current Gang modes, creating a new type of gang and explaining very well its function, because the risk of confusion is great and the subject is already complicated. AndreaPaz, it sound strange to me you are speaking so. If an User want the Cinelerra-GG standard behaviour for the Armed/Disarmed track She/He can use GANG None! No separateor new function is needed because it is already there: GANG None. And in the Manual_20210731 section 5.2.1 (Displaying tracks: Ganged mode) is written very well: *1. Gang None: this is the default mode and is the traditional way Cinelerra operates. If you never toggle the "Gang Tracks" button, everything operates normally as it always has.* For default a new user will find Cinelerra-GG in "Gang None" mode. If an User press the GANG button (and other buttons) without reading the Manual and without know what She/He am doing, I am sorry, Cinelerra-GG is not for you.
I use all the GANG modes for save space and other, without any problem. May be my workflow is different from yours. AndreaPaz wrote:
Patches 3, 0004 and 0005 (I haven't tried this one yet) should be part of a new Gang mode (Gang arm? Gang Cin? Gang Std?). Andrew_R wrote: yes, and then try to play with new preference in .bcast5/Cinelerra_rc: ARMED_IN_GANG_MODE 0 .... there is no propagation to preferences currently, but if you or someone else thinks such 'mode 4' can be useful I'll monkey around in code some more...
I hope NO. Here, both Andrew_R and AndreaPaz, you are messing things up (I hope the English traduction is right). Pleeease, don't touch things that works very well. Thank you! Andrew_R wrote:
may be it can be done.. you mean just gang (link) mode between all edits on video + all edits on few selectable audio tracks? so you can move them as group AND this group become immune to media/clip insert and immune to its components sliding around in this mode? or something else?
It is already there! You can move more tracks together Arming that tracks! You can see it at http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#ReArrangeTracksOrder If you want to group the edits in different track it is written very well in the Manula_20210731, section 5.5.4 (Grouping edits) and so on. You can see that at http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#DragAndDropEditing (old video tutorial). I think that many of you read the Manual but many don't. An User who want to use Cinelerra-GG or Cinelerra MUST READ the manua! The community will help in the forum or other places. There is no point in changing the code when it works fine! Or add a no sense function! Sorry for that long sentences. I think so. I think I'll get out of this discussion. Thanks! IgorBeg
I think you overreacted a bit. My patch does not break those modes, nor it add any mode visible in gui. sorry for some reason I can't reply accurately in the middle of message.. But I think quest about moving around pieces of audio AND pieces of video as group, and preventing them from unintentional de-synchronization still not very trivial in common case? video you linked used 'protected' (disarmed) audio track. But in new gang modes this will not work, because their armed status ignored? On Monday, August 9, 2021, Igor BEGHETTO via Cin <[email protected]> wrote:
Ohoo my God!
AndrePaz wrote:
Moreover, if we want to implement the standard behavior of Cinerella, so that an unarmed track is never modified whether it is visible or not, we must be sure that it is a separate function from the current Gang modes, creating a new type of gang and explaining very well its function, because the risk of confusion is great and the subject is already complicated.
AndreaPaz, it sound strange to me you are speaking so. If an User want the Cinelerra-GG standard behaviour for the Armed/Disarmed track She/He can use GANG None! No separateor new function is needed because it is already there: GANG None. And in the Manual_20210731 section 5.2.1 (Displaying tracks: Ganged mode) is written very well: *1. Gang None: this is the default mode and is the traditional way Cinelerra operates. If you never toggle the "Gang Tracks" button, everything operates normally as it always has.* For default a new user will find Cinelerra-GG in "Gang None" mode. If an User press the GANG button (and other buttons) without reading the Manual and without know what She/He am doing, I am sorry, Cinelerra-GG is not for you.
I use all the GANG modes for save space and other, without any problem. May be my workflow is different from yours.
what if someone need both arm/disarm functionality AND gang modes other than none, at the same time?
AndreaPaz wrote:
Patches 3, 0004 and 0005 (I haven't tried this one yet) should be part of a new Gang mode (Gang arm? Gang Cin? Gang Std?).
Andrew_R wrote:
yes, and then try to play with new preference in .bcast5/Cinelerra_rc: ARMED_IN_GANG_MODE 0 .... there is no propagation to preferences currently, but if you or someone else thinks such 'mode 4' can be useful I'll monkey around in code some more...
I hope NO. Here, both Andrew_R and AndreaPaz, you are messing things up (I hope the English traduction is right). Pleeease, don't touch things that works very well. Thank you!
Andrew_R wrote:
may be it can be done.. you mean just gang (link) mode between all edits on video + all edits on few selectable audio tracks? so you can move them as group AND this group become immune to media/clip insert and immune to its components sliding around in this mode? or something else?
It is already there! You can move more tracks together Arming that tracks! You can see it at http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials# ReArrangeTracksOrder If you want to group the edits in different track it is written very well in the Manula_20210731, section 5.5.4 (Grouping edits) and so on. You can see that at http://www.visi1.org/cinelerra-gg_tutorials#DragAndDropEditing (old video tutorial ).
I
I think that many of you read the Manual but many don't. An User who want to use Cinelerra-GG or Cinelerra MUST READ the manua! The community will help in the forum or other places. There is no point in changing the code when it works fine! Or add a no sense function!
Sorry for that long sentences. I think so. I think I'll get out of this discussion. Thanks!
IgorBeg
I
participants (3)
-
Andrea paz -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Igor BEGHETTO