Hi, Given that AdobeRGB gives a wider colorrange, and therefore is likely to have the ability to do 'better' conversions. What is the best workflow to edit in Cinelerra in this extended mode? Or is Cinelerra by definition limited to RGB-8bit/RGBA-8bit/YUV-8bit/YUVA-8bit? -- Stefan
CinGG has no color management. I also have a wide gamut monitor (98% DCI-P3), but it is useless in CinGG. We have collected all the color info in the manual: https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/Overview_on_Color_Manag... PS: If you find any other news or ways of dealing with color in CinGG, please let us know and we will add it to the manual.
On Friday, May 26, 2023 10:32:56 AM CEST, Andrea paz wrote:
CinGG has no color management. I also have a wide gamut monitor (98% DCI-P3), but it is useless in CinGG. We have collected all the color info in the manual: https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/Overview_on_Color_Manag...
PS: If you find any other news or ways of dealing with color in CinGG, please let us know and we will add it to the manual.
Could you add some screenshots for this section? "For practical guidelines, one can imagine starting with a quality file, for example, 10-bit YUV 4.2.2. You set the project to RGBA-FLOAT; the YUV color space to your choice of Rec709 (for a FullHD) or BT 2020NCL (for UHD) and finally the YUV color range to JPEG." What I can find is "Settings > Format > Color model" for RGBA-Float, and "Settings > Preferences > Appearance > YUV color space" it would be good to explicitly guide the use towards where to end up. I guess my 'work' would benefit from RGB-Float, and only at the output clamp to 8bit. -- Stefan
I added an image as you requested. thanks for the hint.
I guess my 'work' would benefit from RGB-Float, and only at the output clamp to 8bit. In theory, yes. But in practice many of CinGG's internal processes (e.g., effects) do their own conversions. The result may be unpredictable. Everyone has to look for a satisfactory worflow....
Updated GIT manual with Andrea's additional screen shot. This manual section as previously written by Andrea is a very helpful explanation. It is too bad that CinGG does not have better color management and most likely never will. ...Phyllis On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 10:31 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I added an image as you requested. thanks for the hint.
I guess my 'work' would benefit from RGB-Float, and only at the output clamp to 8bit. In theory, yes. But in practice many of CinGG's internal processes (e.g., effects) do their own conversions. The result may be unpredictable. Everyone has to look for a satisfactory worflow.... -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Slightly more from my n-th research into colorspaes. https://www.slashcam.com/news/single/Adobe-After-Effects-gets-ACES-workflow-... Apparently AE (After Effects) got ACES via OCIO just recently: ==== quote == The traditional Adobe colour management engine (which uses ICC profiles) has to be switched to OpenColorIO in a project menu for this. Afterwards, working, composition, display and export colour spaces can be assigned. A plug-in effect "OCIO Color Space Transform" has also been thought of. This is a colour space conversion effect implemented with the OpenColorIO engine that can be used anywhere in the composition. This can work with CDL or LUT files. Complex 3D LUT interpolations are optionally performed tetrahedral, but this requires a supported(end) GPU. ==== not sure how "working" vs "composition" differs .... Long 13 part series on color management in AE again https://www.provideocoalition.com/color-management-part-13-opencolorio-and-a... === quote === As I said above, using OpenColorIO is a conscious decision to do color management manually, instead of using the built-in color management system. And this means you need to have a solid understanding of what you’re trying to do, and why. OpenColorIO was created for use on large scale Hollywood productions, and the ACES workflows that it’s used with are designed to future-proof commercial content. ==== https://www.provideocoalition.com/color-management-part-9-workflow-theory/ == quote === As explained in the video above, the point of a color managed workflow is that we assign our project a colorspace, and any assets which have a different colorspace are converted to match the project. But if every component in our workflow (assets, project, monitor and output) are the same, then no conversion will be needed. === c++ example looks simple, but I have no idea if it works transparently enough to try ... https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/guides/developing/developing.ht... === *Convert your image, using the Processor.* Once you have a CPU or GPU processor, you can apply the color transformation using the “apply” function. In C++ <https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/guides/developing/usage_examples.html#usage-applybasic-cpp>, you may apply the processing in-place, by first wrapping your image in an ImageDesc class. This approach is intended to be used in high performance applications, and can be used on multiple threads (per scanline, per tile, etc). === so, ICC vs OCIO actually a thing ... o.o Currently in cingg you have colorspaces plugin and ffmpeg's LUT plugin, but no support for color-managed display or embedding icc profile in media .... so, *may be* you can add colorspace plugins for equating different media files manually, and then use external tools (olive-editor?) for viewing/embedding profiles .... пт, 26 мая 2023 г., 20:56 Phyllis Smith via Cin <[email protected]
:
Updated GIT manual with Andrea's additional screen shot. This manual section as previously written by Andrea is a very helpful explanation. It is too bad that CinGG does not have better color management and most likely never will. ...Phyllis
On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 10:31 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I added an image as you requested. thanks for the hint.
I guess my 'work' would benefit from RGB-Float, and only at the output clamp to 8bit. In theory, yes. But in practice many of CinGG's internal processes (e.g., effects) do their own conversions. The result may be unpredictable. Everyone has to look for a satisfactory worflow.... -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
сб, 27 мая 2023 г., 16:45 Andrew Randrianasulu <[email protected]>:
Slightly more from my n-th research into colorspaces.
https://video.stackexchange.com/questions/21483/apply-custom-lut-via-ffmpeg this talks about using camera-specific .cube file via ffmpeg. ===== <https://video.stackexchange.com/posts/21653/timeline> You may want to use FFMPEG's lut3d <https://ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-filters.html#lut3d-1> filter. It requires you to provide a look-up table (a *.cube file). For example, if you have an ARRI camera you can generate these files using ARRI Color Tool <http://www.arri.com/camera/amira/downloads/> or simply download a package with them from the linked page. Once you have the files, use FFMPEG like this: ffmpeg -i "Input.mov" -vf lut3d="ARRIP3D65PQ108-33.cube" -s 1920x1080 -c:v dnxhd -pix_fmt yuv422p -b:v 120M DNxHD_for_Editing.mxf ===== so, if you have those LOG videos with corresponding LUT files you can try this in both ffmpeg command line and opts input file .... https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/2847 this ticket says at very end lut3d uses 32-bit floating point internally, so I guess for it to work (more or less as intended) you need rgba-float project type .... Also, comments warns about "interp" parameter, default might be different from DaVinchi
https://www.slashcam.com/news/single/Adobe-After-Effects-gets-ACES-workflow-...
Apparently AE (After Effects) got ACES via OCIO just recently:
==== quote == The traditional Adobe colour management engine (which uses ICC profiles) has to be switched to OpenColorIO in a project menu for this.
Afterwards, working, composition, display and export colour spaces can be assigned.
A plug-in effect "OCIO Color Space Transform" has also been thought of. This is a colour space conversion effect implemented with the OpenColorIO engine that can be used anywhere in the composition. This can work with CDL or LUT files. Complex 3D LUT interpolations are optionally performed tetrahedral, but this requires a supported(end) GPU.
====
not sure how "working" vs "composition" differs ....
Long 13 part series on color management in AE again
https://www.provideocoalition.com/color-management-part-13-opencolorio-and-a...
=== quote ===
As I said above, using OpenColorIO is a conscious decision to do color management manually, instead of using the built-in color management system. And this means you need to have a solid understanding of what you’re trying to do, and why. OpenColorIO was created for use on large scale Hollywood productions, and the ACES workflows that it’s used with are designed to future-proof commercial content.
==== https://www.provideocoalition.com/color-management-part-9-workflow-theory/
== quote ===
As explained in the video above, the point of a color managed workflow is that we assign our project a colorspace, and any assets which have a different colorspace are converted to match the project. But if every component in our workflow (assets, project, monitor and output) are the same, then no conversion will be needed. ===
c++ example looks simple, but I have no idea if it works transparently enough to try ...
https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/guides/developing/developing.ht...
=== *Convert your image, using the Processor.* Once you have a CPU or GPU processor, you can apply the color transformation using the “apply” function. In C++ <https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/guides/developing/usage_examples.html#usage-applybasic-cpp>, you may apply the processing in-place, by first wrapping your image in an ImageDesc class. This approach is intended to be used in high performance applications, and can be used on multiple threads (per scanline, per tile, etc).
===
so, ICC vs OCIO actually a thing ... o.o
Currently in cingg you have colorspaces plugin and ffmpeg's LUT plugin, but no support for color-managed display or embedding icc profile in media ....
so, *may be* you can add colorspace plugins for equating different media files manually, and then use external tools (olive-editor?) for viewing/embedding profiles ....
пт, 26 мая 2023 г., 20:56 Phyllis Smith via Cin < [email protected]>:
Updated GIT manual with Andrea's additional screen shot. This manual section as previously written by Andrea is a very helpful explanation. It is too bad that CinGG does not have better color management and most likely never will. ...Phyllis
On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 10:31 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I added an image as you requested. thanks for the hint.
I guess my 'work' would benefit from RGB-Float, and only at the output clamp to 8bit. In theory, yes. But in practice many of CinGG's internal processes (e.g., effects) do their own conversions. The result may be unpredictable. Everyone has to look for a satisfactory worflow.... -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
so, *may be* you can add colorspace plugins for equating different media files manually, and then use external tools (olive-editor?) for viewing/embedding profiles ....
I once asked if it was possible to put the built-in ColorSpace plugin inside Transcode. That way you could do all the conversions at the beginning, in the Resource window instead of on the timeline for each edit. But it was not possible.
сб, 27 мая 2023 г., 23:03 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
so, *may be* you can add colorspace plugins for equating different media files manually, and then use external tools (olive-editor?) for viewing/embedding profiles ....
I once asked if it was possible to put the built-in ColorSpace plugin inside Transcode. That way you could do all the conversions at the beginning, in the Resource window instead of on the timeline for each edit. But it was not possible.
I think if you can add cingg's native plugins from dvd creation wizard one can try and apply same trick in transcode wizard window ... Additionally, this article discuss wide gamut monitor problem: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/taming-the-wide-gamut-using-srgb-emulation/ *Author: Adam Simmons* Last updated: May 8th 2023 === quote === Some monitors provide an *sRGB emulation mode*, which clamps the colour gamut universally (regardless of being ‘colour-aware’ or not) so it more closely tracks sRGB*. Ideally with little extension beyond and as little under-coverage as possible. Such a setting is fairly widespread but not always found on wide gamut displays and is the only sRGB gamut clamp option for devices such as the Xbox Series X, PS5 and other games consoles. Even if such a setting is present, it’s unfortunately *fairly common for sRGB emulation modes to lock off brightness*, which means the setting can be inappropriate for many if it doesn’t fit their own sensitivities and preferences. If not, *it’s extremely common for them to lock off access to other settings such as colour controls and gamma settings*. === quote end, emphasis original ==== so, compicc or kde5's experimental ICC plugin should fight this at windowing system level.
I don't think my Dell UP2716D has sRGB emulation. I think it has 3 ICCs set internally, namely sRGB; Rec709 and DCI-P3. To be precise I think it has 3 internal LUTs and not 3 ICCs. I use it with an ICC I created (1886, gamma 2.4) which works well in many programs (for example in mpv it is outstanding!). I also use it in CinGG unless I have to do color correction; in that case I switch to sRGB. My only 2 problems are: 1- Arch does not support 10-bit depth well. 2- CinGG does not support ICCs (or a CMS).. But they are not serious shortcomings... Andrew, I apologize but I will not try live with compicc and oneyros. Too much work to do and the kind I don't understand.
ср, 31 мая 2023 г., 22:29 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
I don't think my Dell UP2716D has sRGB emulation. I think it has 3 ICCs set internally, namely sRGB; Rec709 and DCI-P3. To be precise I think it has 3 internal LUTs and not 3 ICCs. I use it with an ICC I created (1886, gamma 2.4) which works well in many programs (for example in mpv it is outstanding!). I also use it in CinGG unless I have to do color correction; in that case I switch to sRGB. My only 2 problems are: 1- Arch does not support 10-bit depth well. 2- CinGG does not support ICCs (or a CMS).. But they are not serious shortcomings...
Andrew, I apologize but I will not try live with compicc and oneyros. Too much work to do and the kind I don't understand.
No problem, I just found this concept interesting and hopefully will gain further understanding by looking at code of both examples and modded cinepain (not compiled it yet)
ср, 31 мая 2023 г., 22:29 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
I don't think my Dell UP2716D has sRGB emulation.
https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/dell-up2716d/ this site tend to disagree? Difference in terminology? ==== The native colour gamut of the monitor (‘Standard’ – top image) comprehensively covers both the sRGB and Adobe RGB colour spaces. There is extension beyond the Adobe RGB colour space, even, particularly in the red region of this representation. Note that the Adobe RGB colour space actually coincides with sRGB in this ‘corner’ of this representation. The ‘Adobe RGB’ emulation mode cuts this down effectively so that it fully covers the Adobe RGB colour space without much over-extension at all. The ‘sRGB’ emulation mode does this same with the sRGB colour space, with just a smidge of under-coverage but nothing to write home about. The ‘REC709’ emulation mode is largely the same with a bit of extension beyond in places, whilst ‘DCI-P3’ does an excellent job of emulating the ‘DCI-P3’ colour space (not shown in this diagram – but essentially coinciding with the monitor’s gamut here) ==== But I guess each monitor (esp. as they age) will show slightly different picture ... More color articles: https://jonnyelwyn.co.uk/film-and-video-editing/affordable-colour-grading-mo... so, pairing one of those sub-1000$ monitors with sub-1000$ HDR camera like sony zv1 ( shots some HLG ang S-log variants ) might be interesting combination? Still not sure if your monitor can do HDR/HDR10+ ... Strange find - Pgenerator Test Pattern Generator based on RPi4 https://www.avsforum.com/threads/dedicated-raspberry-pi-pgenerator-thread-se... uses patched mesa + drm kernel module for displaying said HDR ... https://github.com/docdude/PGenerator https://github.com/docdude/ofxRPI4WindowHDR not really buildable on normal Rpi debian, from that I can see, sadly ... I think it has 3
ICCs set internally, namely sRGB; Rec709 and DCI-P3. To be precise I think it has 3 internal LUTs and not 3 ICCs. I use it with an ICC I created (1886, gamma 2.4) which works well in many programs (for example in mpv it is outstanding!). I also use it in CinGG unless I have to do color correction; in that case I switch to sRGB. My only 2 problems are: 1- Arch does not support 10-bit depth well. 2- CinGG does not support ICCs (or a CMS).. But they are not serious shortcomings...
Andrew, I apologize but I will not try live with compicc and oneyros. Too much work to do and the kind I don't understand.
You are right: the manual talks about emulation for sRGB. More news can be found here: https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-dell-wide-gamut-monitors However, I am not intent on exploiting my monitor in HDR; in calibration I even decreased the brightness from the default 120 Cd/m2 to 100 Cd/m2. So I have more realistic colors.
сб, 3 июн. 2023 г., 23:28 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
You are right: the manual talks about emulation for sRGB. More news can be found here: https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-dell-wide-gamut-monitors
Ah, THIS article definitely paints different, much darker picture about those monitors (from 2018 perspective). It clearly states you need GPU calibration for those to work nicely. I wonder if they mean something like xcalib work on loading gamma tables or also using actual 3d hardware for color correction? This is partially reason why I thought about full-screen external Color Management plugin - cingg may not have any real display-side color correction but if you just start external process before entering fullscreen and stop after (assuming single monitor setup) you will have your more accurate colors in fullscreen ( HDR dynamic metadata also apparently can be only send in fullscreen mode, even in Windows!). So, I propose giant external "hack" when it comes to workflow :) with slight advantage you do not need to wait on me/anyone until any CM arrives (if ever!) to cingg!
However, I am not intent on exploiting my monitor in HDR; in calibration I even decreased the brightness from the default 120 Cd/m2 to 100 Cd/m2. So I have more realistic colors.
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2019/05/wide-color-photos-are-comi... this partially answers what application supposed to do? === At a technical level, this means there will be pictures coming to your application with an ICC profile <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC_profile> that is not sRGB but some other wider color gamut: Display P3, Adobe RGB, etc. For consumers, this means their photos will look more realistic. === I hope new ffmpeg 6+ plus lcms2 build will do it automagically? ==== To render wide color gamut contents, besides the wide color contents, you will also need to create a wide color gamut surfaces to render to. In OpenGL for example, your application must first check the following extensions: - EXT_gl_colorspace_display_p3_passthrough <https://www.khronos.org/registry/EGL/extensions/EXT/EGL_EXT_gl_colorspace_display_p3_passthrough.txt> - EXT_gl_colorspace_display_p3 <https://www.khronos.org/registry/EGL/extensions/EXT/EGL_EXT_gl_colorspace_display_p3.txt> And then, request the Display P3 as the color space when creating your surfaces, ==== And about this part I am not sure if Mesa3d already implement them .... Cingg definitely does not do egl on x11 so .... For now wide-gamut display out of cingg as described there is impossible! :( Sorry so far .... PS: Krita was modded quite heavily due to HDR support: https://www.intel.cn/content/www/cn/zh/developer/articles/success-story/pain... ps2: Intel's Linux/wayland Proof of concept HDR rendering demo was posted in late 2017: https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2017-December/036403.ht... === simple-hdr-video Uses ffmpeg to decode video into shm buffers, and sets the colorspace/ycbcr encoding etc. appropriately. Ie. this one can actually output HDR video ===== Of course in 6 years a lot of code was added/deleted, so I am not even sure you can build provided mesa/wayland/weston branches today out of the box ... вс, 4 июн. 2023 г., 01:52 Andrew Randrianasulu <[email protected]>:
сб, 3 июн. 2023 г., 23:28 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
You are right: the manual talks about emulation for sRGB. More news can be found here: https://photographylife.com/how-to-calibrate-dell-wide-gamut-monitors
Ah, THIS article definitely paints different, much darker picture about those monitors (from 2018 perspective). It clearly states you need GPU calibration for those to work nicely. I wonder if they mean something like xcalib work on loading gamma tables or also using actual 3d hardware for color correction?
This is partially reason why I thought about full-screen external Color Management plugin - cingg may not have any real display-side color correction but if you just start external process before entering fullscreen and stop after (assuming single monitor setup) you will have your more accurate colors in fullscreen ( HDR dynamic metadata also apparently can be only send in fullscreen mode, even in Windows!).
So, I propose giant external "hack" when it comes to workflow :) with slight advantage you do not need to wait on me/anyone until any CM arrives (if ever!) to cingg!
However, I am not intent on exploiting my monitor in HDR; in calibration I even decreased the brightness from the default 120 Cd/m2 to 100 Cd/m2. So I have more realistic colors.
participants (4)
-
Andrea paz -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Phyllis Smith -
Stefan de Konink