SD 16:9 missing among CinGG BD-Render Video Formats
According to wikipedia, 16:9 SD video formats are also valid BD-Video formats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video SD 720 × 480 29.97i 4:3 or 16:9[d] (anamorhic) 720 × 576 25i 4:3 or 16:9[d] The Create BD Format contains 720 x 576/ 25i/p and 720 x 480/ 29.97i/p Please verify if this these are SD 4:3 only? The wikipedia table lists only SD interlaced as valid SD BD-Video format If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid?
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 04:02 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]>:
According to wikipedia, 16:9 SD video formats are also valid BD-Video formats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video
SD 720 × 480 29.97i 4:3 or 16:9[d] (anamorhic) 720 × 576 25i 4:3 or 16:9[d]
The Create BD Format contains 720 x 576/ 25i/p and 720 x 480/ 29.97i/p
Please verify if this these are SD 4:3 only? The wikipedia table lists only SD interlaced as valid SD BD-Video format
I just send Phyllis our yesteryear whitepaper from 2010 (creation date), and yeah, it only lists sd interlaced formats. BUT some formats marked with "*" , they are not in spec yet playable by some hardware. from cinelerra/bdcreate.C static struct bd_format { const char *name; int w, h; double framerate; int wide, interlaced; } bd_formats[] = { // framerates are frames, not fields, per second, *=not standard { "1920x1080 29.97i", 1920,1080, 29.97, 1, ILACE_MODE_TOP_FIRST }, { "1920x1080 29.97p*", 1920,1080, 29.97, 1, ILACE_MODE_FAKE_INTERLACE }, { "1920x1080 24p", 1920,1080, 24., 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1920x1080 25i", 1920,1080, 25., 1, ILACE_MODE_TOP_FIRST }, { "1920x1080 25p*", 1920,1080, 25., 1, ILACE_MODE_FAKE_INTERLACE }, { "1920x1080 23.976p", 1920,1080, 23.976, 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1440x1080 29.97i", 1440,1080, 29.97, -1, ILACE_MODE_TOP_FIRST }, { "1440x1080 25i", 1440,1080, 25., -1, ILACE_MODE_TOP_FIRST }, { "1440x1080 24p", 1440,1080, 24., -1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1440x1080 23.976p", 1440,1080, 23.976,-1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 59.94p", 1280,720, 59.94, 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 50p", 1280,720, 50., 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 29.97p*", 1280,720, 29.97, 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 25p*", 1280,720, 25., 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 24p", 1280,720, 24., 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "1280x720 23.976p", 1280,720, 23.976, 1, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "720x576 25i", 720,576, 25., 0, ILACE_MODE_BOTTOM_FIRST }, { "720x576 25p*", 720,576, 25., 0, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, { "720x480 29.97i", 720,480, 29.97, 0, ILACE_MODE_BOTTOM_FIRST }, { "720x480 29.97p*", 720,480, 29.97, 0, ILACE_MODE_NOTINTERLACED }, }; so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV? I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now. -------------------- I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here? build plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/plugins build lv2 index for: /usr/share/cin/lv2 build ladspa plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/ladspa Unable to create directory: /home/terje/Videoklipp/BD/bd_hdv_20240116-165618 ------------------------ I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video) So far I have used FFmpeg to obtain this, i.e 1440X1080, MPEG-2, PCM: Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-HDV-iso/hdv01_m2t_pcm_bluray.iso': Duration: 00:10:57.20, start: 4200.000000, bitrate: 28030 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) (HDMV / 0x564D4448), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: pcm_bluray (HDMV / 0x564D4448), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s 1440X1080, MPEG-2, AC3: Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-M2TS/hdv01_05_m2t.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.74, start: 1.400000, bitrate: 27740 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x100]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x101]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s 1920x1080, h264, AC3: Input #0, mpegts, from '/BD-M2TS/BDMV/STREAM/00000.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.45, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 8874 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(top first), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 224 kb/s
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 19:19 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV?
right now ot seems to be WITH scaling OR produces 4:3 1440*1080 files. Patches aims at fixing that. I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic
included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now.
yeahhhh .... --------------------
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
build plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/plugins build lv2 index for: /usr/share/cin/lv2 build ladspa plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/ladspa Unable to create directory: /home/terje/Videoklipp/BD/bd_hdv_20240116-165618
------------------------
sounds like permission error?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
hey, we did lpcm bd audio too some time ago! There must be little dropdown menu with two choices ...
It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video).
well, smart render is harder than it sounds even in linear transcoders based on ffmpeg :/ piping all this info in correct manner using cingg's internal seems to be beyond that *I* can do. But we hopefully at very minimum can develop mpeg2_video encoding profile based on mpeg2 high quality one. But this again require testing on real media/player - due to bitrate distribution/rotation speed interplay not emulated when reading from a file.
So far I have used FFmpeg to obtain this, i.e
1440X1080, MPEG-2, PCM:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-HDV-iso/hdv01_m2t_pcm_bluray.iso': Duration: 00:10:57.20, start: 4200.000000, bitrate: 28030 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) (HDMV / 0x564D4448), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: pcm_bluray (HDMV / 0x564D4448), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
1440X1080, MPEG-2, AC3:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-M2TS/hdv01_05_m2t.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.74, start: 1.400000, bitrate: 27740 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x100]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x101]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
1920x1080, h264, AC3:
Input #0, mpegts, from '/BD-M2TS/BDMV/STREAM/00000.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.45, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 8874 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(top first), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 224 kb/s
well, and this is good!
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Den 16.01.2024 17:31, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 19:19 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV?
right now ot seems to be WITH scaling OR produces 4:3 1440*1080 files. Patches aims at fixing that.
I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now.
yeahhhh ....
--------------------
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
build plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/plugins build lv2 index for: /usr/share/cin/lv2 build ladspa plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/ladspa Unable to create directory: /home/terje/Videoklipp/BD/bd_hdv_20240116-165618
------------------------
sounds like permission error?
A stupid mistake of my own. In the meantime I had manually changed the Directory anme from BD to BD-Video :) I rendered HDV to BD successful now, but got Aspect error both with None and Scaled: 1) None (scale): a small 4:3 sqeezed image covering 50% of the VLC display area centered, no cropping: Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12995 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s32 (24 bit), 2304 kb/s 2) Scaled: full Hight 4:3 sqeezed image horizontally centered on the VLC display (corrected with forcing Aspect 16:9 in VLC) Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12376 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
hey, we did lpcm bd audio too some time ago! There must be little dropdown menu with two choices ...
It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video).
well, smart render is harder than it sounds even in linear transcoders based on ffmpeg :/
piping all this info in correct manner using cingg's internal seems to be beyond that *I* can do.
But we hopefully at very minimum can develop mpeg2_video encoding profile based on mpeg2 high quality one. But this again require testing on real media/player - due to bitrate distribution/rotation speed interplay not emulated when reading from a file.
I meant video Copy of the compliant 1080i HDV.m2t mpeg2 was a "smart render" in this case ;) (There is also additional non-anamorhic 1280x720 HDV available) I saw the tsmuxer button is also available, so possibly AC3/PCM then can be muxed together with MPEG-2, similar like I did with FFmpeg in my previous "Preserving Camcorder Media" chpt 5 page 17 (23)? Just keep (copy) the mpeg2 video as is and transcode the MP2 audio to AC3/ PCM. Yes, the standard compliant MPEG-2 for HDV.m2t source profile is here: Input #0, mpegts, from 'hdv07_05.m2t': Duration: 00:06:58.27, start: 3276.528000, bitrate: 25626 kb/s Program 100 Stream #0:0[0x810]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x814]: Audio: mp2 ([3][0][0][0] / 0x0003), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s mediainfo hdv07_05.m2t General ID : 255 (0xFF) Complete name : hdv07_05.m2t Format : MPEG-TS Commercial name : HDV 1080i File size : 1.25 GiB Duration : 6 min 57 s Start time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC End time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 25.6 Mb/s Maximum Overall bit rate : 33.0 Mb/s Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Encoded date : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC Video ID : 2064 (0x810) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video Commercial name : HDV 1080i Format version : Version 2 Format profile : Main@High 1440 Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP Format settings, BVOP : Yes Format settings, Matrix : Custom Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12 Format settings, picture structure : Frame Codec ID : 2 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 24.0 Mb/s Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mb/s Width : 1 440 pixels Height : 1 080 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Standard : Component Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First Compression mode : Lossy Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.617 Stream size : 1.17 GiB (93%) Color primaries : BT.709 Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.709 Audio ID : 2068 (0x814) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 Codec ID : 3 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 384 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 41.667 FPS (1152 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : -144 ms Stream size : 19.1 MiB (1%) Menu ID : 129 (0x81) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video / MPEG Audio / / List : 2064 (0x810) (MPEG Video) / 2068 (0x814) (MPEG Audio) / 2069 (0x815) () / 2065 (0x811) ()
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 21:01 Terje J. Hanssen <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:31, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 19:19 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV?
right now ot seems to be WITH scaling OR produces 4:3 1440*1080 files. Patches aims at fixing that.
I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic
included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now.
yeahhhh ....
--------------------
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
build plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/plugins build lv2 index for: /usr/share/cin/lv2 build ladspa plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/ladspa Unable to create directory: /home/terje/Videoklipp/BD/bd_hdv_20240116-165618
------------------------
sounds like permission error?
A stupid mistake of my own. In the meantime I had manually changed the Directory anme from BD to BD-Video :)
I rendered HDV to BD successful now, but got Aspect error both with None and Scaled:
1) None (scale): a small 4:3 sqeezed image covering 50% of the VLC display area centered, no cropping:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12995 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s32 (24 bit), 2304 kb/s
2) Scaled: full Hight 4:3 sqeezed image horizontally centered on the VLC display (corrected with forcing Aspect 16:9 in VLC)
Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12376 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
not dure how well this particular case was tested ... may be it worked because player/TV automagically forced 16:9 ?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
hey, we did lpcm bd audio too some time ago! There must be little dropdown menu with two choices ...
It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video).
well, smart render is harder than it sounds even in linear transcoders based on ffmpeg :/
piping all this info in correct manner using cingg's internal seems to be beyond that *I* can do.
But we hopefully at very minimum can develop mpeg2_video encoding profile based on mpeg2 high quality one. But this again require testing on real media/player - due to bitrate distribution/rotation speed interplay not emulated when reading from a file.
I meant video Copy of the compliant 1080i HDV.m2t mpeg2 was a "smart render" in this case ;) (There is also additional non-anamorhic 1280x720 HDV available)
I saw the tsmuxer button is also available, so possibly AC3/PCM then can be muxed together with MPEG-2, similar like I did with FFmpeg in my previous "Preserving Camcorder Media" chpt 5 page 17 (23)? Just keep (copy) the mpeg2 video as is and transcode the MP2 audio to AC3/ PCM.
internals on cinelerra(-gg) do not carry info about Group of Pictures from input asset to output one so copying compressed mpeg2 stream is not possible currently.
Yes, the standard compliant MPEG-2 for HDV.m2t source profile is here:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'hdv07_05.m2t': Duration: 00:06:58.27, start: 3276.528000, bitrate: 25626 kb/s Program 100 Stream #0:0[0x810]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x814]: Audio: mp2 ([3][0][0][0] / 0x0003), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s
mediainfo hdv07_05.m2t
General ID : 255 (0xFF) Complete name : hdv07_05.m2t Format : MPEG-TS Commercial name : HDV 1080i File size : 1.25 GiB Duration : 6 min 57 s Start time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC End time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 25.6 Mb/s Maximum Overall bit rate : 33.0 Mb/s Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Encoded date : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC
Video ID : 2064 (0x810) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video Commercial name : HDV 1080i Format version : Version 2 Format profile : Main@High 1440 Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP Format settings, BVOP : Yes Format settings, Matrix : Custom Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12 Format settings, picture structure : Frame Codec ID : 2 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 24.0 Mb/s Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mb/s Width : 1 440 pixels Height : 1 080 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Standard : Component Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First Compression mode : Lossy Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.617 Stream size : 1.17 GiB (93%) Color primaries : BT.709 Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Audio ID : 2068 (0x814) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 Codec ID : 3 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 384 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 41.667 FPS (1152 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : -144 ms Stream size : 19.1 MiB (1%)
Menu ID : 129 (0x81) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video / MPEG Audio / / List : 2064 (0x810) (MPEG Video) / 2068 (0x814) (MPEG Audio) / 2069 (0x815) () / 2065 (0x811) ()
so idea to test is to manually tweak selected video codec to this profile in popped-up batchrender window (using small wrench icon) and fixup bd.sh afterwards when it errors out (not sure if mpeg2 can hang from same pid as h264 - forgot it all!) main profile to tweak should be ffmpeg/video/mpeg2_hq.mpeg mpeg mpeg2video sc_threshold=-30000 dc=11 bf=2 trellis=2 mbd=rd cmp=2 subcmp=2 b=4000000 so you ramp up b to 2500000, set g=15 and probably add other options. And save as another profile :;) I'll try to look at mlt/openshot, they probably had hdv mpeg2 spelled out ..
Den 16.01.2024 19:29, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 21:01 Terje J. Hanssen <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:31, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 19:19 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV?
right now ot seems to be WITH scaling OR produces 4:3 1440*1080 files. Patches aims at fixing that.
I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now.
yeahhhh ....
................
I rendered HDV to BD successful now, but got Aspect error both with None and Scaled:
1) None (scale): a small 4:3 sqeezed image covering 50% of the VLC display area centered, no cropping:
a little correction: Visually the small image here was 0.5W * 0.5H = 0.25 of the VLC display area. The same results using ffplay in case 1) and 2)
Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12995 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s32 (24 bit), 2304 kb/s
2) Scaled: full Hight 4:3 sqeezed image horizontally centered on the VLC display (corrected with forcing Aspect 16:9 in VLC)
Input #0, mpegts, from 'bd.m2ts': Duration: 00:06:58.08, start: 0.080000, bitrate: 12376 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100](und): Audio: pcm_bluray ([128][0][0][0] / 0x0080), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
not dure how well this particular case was tested ... may be it worked because player/TV automagically forced 16:9 ?
I think ffprobe's output above has to be ....1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], indentical to the source HDV below, to display correctly.
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
hey, we did lpcm bd audio too some time ago! There must be little dropdown menu with two choices ...
It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video).
well, smart render is harder than it sounds even in linear transcoders based on ffmpeg :/
piping all this info in correct manner using cingg's internal seems to be beyond that *I* can do.
But we hopefully at very minimum can develop mpeg2_video encoding profile based on mpeg2 high quality one. But this again require testing on real media/player - due to bitrate distribution/rotation speed interplay not emulated when reading from a file.
I meant video Copy of the compliant 1080i HDV.m2t mpeg2 was a "smart render" in this case ;) (There is also additional non-anamorhic 1280x720 HDV available)
I saw the tsmuxer button is also available, so possibly AC3/PCM then can be muxed together with MPEG-2, similar like I did with FFmpeg in my previous "Preserving Camcorder Media" chpt 5 page 17 (23)? Just keep (copy) the mpeg2 video as is and transcode the MP2 audio to AC3/ PCM.
internals on cinelerra(-gg) do not carry info about Group of Pictures from input asset to output one so copying compressed mpeg2 stream is not possible currently.
Yes, the standard compliant MPEG-2 for HDV.m2t source profile is here:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'hdv07_05.m2t': Duration: 00:06:58.27, start: 3276.528000, bitrate: 25626 kb/s Program 100 Stream #0:0[0x810]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x814]: Audio: mp2 ([3][0][0][0] / 0x0003), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 384 kb/s
mediainfo hdv07_05.m2t
General ID : 255 (0xFF) Complete name : hdv07_05.m2t Format : MPEG-TS Commercial name : HDV 1080i File size : 1.25 GiB Duration : 6 min 57 s Start time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC End time : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 14:53:14 UTC / 2007-08-28 Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 25.6 Mb/s Maximum Overall bit rate : 33.0 Mb/s Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Encoded date : 2007-08-28 14:53:13 UTC
Video ID : 2064 (0x810) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video Commercial name : HDV 1080i Format version : Version 2 Format profile : Main@High 1440 Format settings : CustomMatrix / BVOP Format settings, BVOP : Yes Format settings, Matrix : Custom Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12 Format settings, picture structure : Frame Codec ID : 2 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 24.0 Mb/s Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mb/s Width : 1 440 pixels Height : 1 080 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate : 25.000 FPS Standard : Component Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First Compression mode : Lossy Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.617 Stream size : 1.17 GiB (93%) Color primaries : BT.709 Transfer characteristics : BT.709 Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Audio ID : 2068 (0x814) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 Codec ID : 3 Duration : 6 min 57 s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 384 kb/s Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz Frame rate : 41.667 FPS (1152 SPF) Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : -144 ms Stream size : 19.1 MiB (1%)
Menu ID : 129 (0x81) Menu ID : 100 (0x64) Format : MPEG Video / MPEG Audio / / List : 2064 (0x810) (MPEG Video) / 2068 (0x814) (MPEG Audio) / 2069 (0x815) () / 2065 (0x811) ()
so idea to test is to manually tweak selected video codec to this profile in popped-up batchrender window (using small wrench icon) and fixup bd.sh afterwards when it errors out (not sure if mpeg2 can hang from same pid as h264 - forgot it all!)
main profile to tweak should be
ffmpeg/video/mpeg2_hq.mpeg
mpeg mpeg2video sc_threshold=-30000 dc=11 bf=2 trellis=2 mbd=rd cmp=2 subcmp=2 b=4000000
so you ramp up b to 2500000, set g=15 and probably add other options. And save as another profile :;)
I'll try to look at mlt/openshot, they probably had hdv mpeg2 spelled out ..
Den 16.01.2024 17:19, skrev Terje J. Hanssen:
Den 16.01.2024 05:58, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu via Cin:
so yeah, seems like sd 16:9 missing. easy to add
I wonder if we should modify 1440*1080 presets to also be wide always? How it looks now {if source is hdv unscaled} in real (HD) TV connected to BD player ?
The FHD option 1920x1080 is already available, with or without scaled from HDV? I suggest CinGG supports all valid BD-formats, SD and HDV anamorphic included. I am currently not rigged to test BD 1440x1080 with BD player and TV, but I think I did test it previously on a PC display (can possibly test it later by opportunity). If not other project reasons, I basically don't see why to up-convert and store more pixels on the medium, if and when the 1440x1080 format scales fine to 16:9 by the player/TV. Just did a simple succesful test with VLC now. --------------------
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
build plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/plugins build lv2 index for: /usr/share/cin/lv2 build ladspa plugin index for: /tmp/.mount_cin-x87v7ShV/usr/bin/ladspa Unable to create directory: /home/terje/Videoklipp/BD/bd_hdv_20240116-165618
------------------------
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
.................... should be; ac3 or pcm audio
It would be fine if Create BD also could be extended to offer compliant mpeg2 video and video copy (smart rendering) with separate AC3/PCM_bluray audio (ref. Create BD video without rendering HDV and possibly DVD video)
So far I have used FFmpeg to obtain this, i.e
1440X1080, MPEG-2, PCM:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-HDV-iso/hdv01_m2t_pcm_bluray.iso': Duration: 00:10:57.20, start: 4200.000000, bitrate: 28030 kb/s Program 1 Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) (HDMV / 0x564D4448), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: pcm_bluray (HDMV / 0x564D4448), 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
1440X1080, MPEG-2, AC3:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'BD-M2TS/hdv01_05_m2t.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.74, start: 1.400000, bitrate: 27740 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x100]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Side data: cpb: bitrate max/min/avg: 25000000/0/0 buffer size: 7340032 vbv_delay: N/A Stream #0:1[0x101]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
1920x1080, h264, AC3:
Input #0, mpegts, from '/BD-M2TS/BDMV/STREAM/00000.m2ts': Duration: 00:07:38.45, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 8874 kb/s Program 1 Metadata: service_name : Service01 service_provider: FFmpeg Stream #0:0[0x1011]: Video: h264 (High) ([27][0][0][0] / 0x001B), yuv420p(top first), 1920x1080 [SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc Stream #0:1[0x1100]: Audio: ac3 ([129][0][0][0] / 0x0081), 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 224 kb/s
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only.
The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG with root permissions. @Terje Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the manual (the third part). Can you check this as well? Plus I would like to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no knowledge of it....
Den 16.01.2024 17:53, skrev Andrea paz:
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG with root permissions.
Well, maybe you saw I actually had root access, but tried instead to write to a directory I had renamed 😳
@Terje Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the manual (the third part). Can you check this as well?
Seems fine for me.
Plus I would like to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no knowledge of it....
Yes, let us co-operate on a BD use case next, but first I suggest to complete the 16:9 HDV to 16:9 DV use case successful ;) To repeat and extract from the long thread, we can start from from my dialog with Andrew below: https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2024-January/007699.html =================
I wonder how much was cropped?
May be I misread you but you loaded HDV 1440*1080 clip and then rendered it into ffmpeg DV at 576i WITHOUT any scaling on top?
-------------------- Yes, I loaded the anamorphic 16:9 HDV 1440x1080 clip and then rendered it using Set Format Preset PAL 576i (16:9)-DV(D) - without any scaling on top. According to my understanding this should down-convert the full source image to DVD 16:9 anamorphic format, which at playback should display upscaled 16:9 screen. That is, just as in my first post 4 b) FFmpeg transcode HDV to DV-wide ffmpeg -hide_banner -i hdv07_05.m2t -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 -c:v dvvideo -c:a pcm_s16le dv07_05_wide.dv ---------------------------- DVD Render Format autoscales the input HDV format to fit the selected 16x9 DVD output format. When input format and output rendering formats are identical, it seems that nothing needs to be set/edited manually in Set Format. Then the unavoidable request/suggestion: Could correspondingly different I/O format via selected Presets also bake in Autoscale as default (beside color space mentioned before) ? (refer to the: -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 in the ffmpeg line below) --------------------------- I think no, it was intended to give users control over what kind of filters they want to apply. Even with ffmpeg you still manually add scale filter ... ----------------------------- Fx. the DVD Render window has a Scale dropdown menu, where "Scaled" is default. The other options are None and Cropped (various). As an additional test I rendered with None, and then got similar 16:9 output displayed as ffmpeg-avi. (The Raw DV differed with 4_3 display) ============ Here we are currently. I hoped to get this down-convert/scale Rendering via Set Format Preset as easy as corresponding DVD Render (and BD-Render) using a user selectable "Scale switch". If this is not easy, possible or desirable, I hope you can add the detailed Scale steps in this case from here, because I have no experience with this yet.
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 03:07 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:53, skrev Andrea paz:
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG with root permissions.
Well, maybe you saw I actually had root access, but tried instead to write to a directory I had renamed 😳
@Terje Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the manual (the third part). Can you check this as well?
Seems fine for me.
Plus I would like to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no knowledge of it....
Yes, let us co-operate on a BD use case next, but first I suggest to complete the 16:9 HDV to 16:9 DV use case successful ;)
well, may be just use DVD render but abort it at second (batchrender) window, and render normally ? if dvd render set scaler automatically you hopefully just can reuse its settings for wide dv encoding? but watch out for interlace reversal ... :( (tff for hdv, bff for dv). So may be you need more complex hdv interlaced = to frames -> scale down fields independently = > encode procedure .... https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/480.html If you just deinterlace then scale it will be simpler, i think. Because we not start with upscaled interlaced SD .... To repeat and extract from the long thread, we can start from from my
dialog with Andrew below: https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2024-January/007699.html
=================
I wonder how much was cropped?
May be I misread you but you loaded HDV 1440*1080 clip and then rendered it into ffmpeg DV at 576i WITHOUT any scaling on top?
-------------------- Yes, I loaded the anamorphic 16:9 HDV 1440x1080 clip and then rendered it using Set Format Preset PAL 576i (16:9)-DV(D) - without any scaling on top. According to my understanding this should down-convert the full source image to DVD 16:9 anamorphic format, which at playback should display upscaled 16:9 screen. That is, just as in my first post
4 b) FFmpeg transcode HDV to DV-wide ffmpeg -hide_banner -i hdv07_05.m2t -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 -c:v dvvideo -c:a pcm_s16le dv07_05_wide.dv ---------------------------- DVD Render Format autoscales the input HDV format to fit the selected 16x9 DVD output format. When input format and output rendering formats are identical, it seems that nothing needs to be set/edited manually in Set Format.
Then the unavoidable request/suggestion: Could correspondingly different I/O format via selected Presets also bake in Autoscale as default (beside color space mentioned before) ? (refer to the: -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 in the ffmpeg line below) --------------------------- I think no, it was intended to give users control over what kind of filters they want to apply. Even with ffmpeg you still manually add scale filter ... ----------------------------- Fx. the DVD Render window has a Scale dropdown menu, where "Scaled" is default. The other options are None and Cropped (various). As an additional test I rendered with None, and then got similar 16:9 output displayed as ffmpeg-avi. (The Raw DV differed with 4_3 display) ============
Here we are currently. I hoped to get this down-convert/scale Rendering via Set Format Preset as easy as corresponding DVD Render (and BD-Render) using a user selectable "Scale switch". If this is not easy, possible or desirable, I hope you can add the detailed Scale steps in this case from here, because I have no experience with this yet.
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
I have prepared version 3. One consideration: The render produces an interlaced media. RMB --> Info --> Assett Interlacing does not provide this information, but in RMB --> Info --> Detail there are two entries regarding interlacing ("interlace (container level): -1" and "interlace (codec level): -1"). I think it is the avi format that does not provide this information. Using the dv_pal.qt render preset has this information (Top Fields First). Does this test of mine appear to be true to you?
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 12:54 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
I have prepared version 3.
One consideration: The render produces an interlaced media. RMB --> Info --> Assett Interlacing does not provide this information, but in RMB --> Info --> Detail there are two entries regarding interlacing ("interlace (container level): -1" and "interlace (codec level): -1"). I think it is the avi format that does not provide this information.
yeah, I tried to figure out how to port existing avi ODML writing function for reading the same info from same place in file and failed ;) Using the
dv_pal.qt render preset has this information (Top Fields First). Does this test of mine appear to be true to you?
Den 17.01.2024 10:54, skrev Andrea paz:
I have prepared version 3.
One consideration: The render produces an interlaced media. RMB --> Info --> Assett Interlacing does not provide this information, but in RMB --> Info --> Detail there are two entries regarding interlacing ("interlace (container level): -1" and "interlace (codec level): -1"). I think it is the avi format that does not provide this information. Using the dv_pal.qt render preset has this information (Top Fields First). Does this test of mine appear to be true to you?
When the manual deals with standard formats, it is relative easy to make customizations for special formats 😎
Den 17.01.2024 15:17, skrev Terje J. Hanssen:
Den 17.01.2024 10:54, skrev Andrea paz:
I have prepared version 3.
One consideration: The render produces an interlaced media. RMB --> Info --> Assett Interlacing does not provide this information, but in RMB --> Info --> Detail there are two entries regarding interlacing ("interlace (container level): -1" and "interlace (codec level): -1"). I think it is the avi format that does not provide this information. Using the dv_pal.qt render preset has this information (Top Fields First). Does this test of mine appear to be true to you?
When the manual deals with standard formats, it is relative easy to make customizations for special formats 😎
@ Andrea, I forgot to ask if you have a chance to make some screenshots examples? I think it will ease a lot to clarify the text. ;)
@ Andrea, I forgot to ask if you have a chance to make some screenshots examples? I think it will ease a lot to clarify the text. ;) @Terje One idea is to put some pictures, another is to make a video to put privately on CinGG's Youtube channel; so you can only watch it from the link in the manual. It seems to me that too many pictures in an appendix weighs down the manual too much. However, I don't have a problem with putting pictures up. With your other file (5sec_dv01_03.dv) what test do you propose to do?
One thing that is still unclear to me is why CinGG and ffmpeg indicate SAR instead of PAR. How this affects the workflow and whether their SAR is something new that applies to both normal SAR and PAR, or whether it just changes the name but remains a "pixel aspect ratio."
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 22:22 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
@ Andrea, I forgot to ask if you have a chance to make some screenshots examples? I think it will ease a lot to clarify the text. ;) @Terje One idea is to put some pictures, another is to make a video to put privately on CinGG's Youtube channel; so you can only watch it from the link in the manual. It seems to me that too many pictures in an appendix weighs down the manual too much. However, I don't have a problem with putting pictures up. With your other file (5sec_dv01_03.dv) what test do you propose to do?
One thing that is still unclear to me is why CinGG and ffmpeg indicate SAR instead of PAR.
May be because for codecs internal work SAR feels more important? If PAR (in the sense of ratio between coded picture width and height) can be derived in exact way from SAR and DAR - then I see why ffmpeg opted to not carry it .. But confusing, yes. How this affects the workflow and whether their
SAR is something new that applies to both normal SAR and PAR, or whether it just changes the name but remains a "pixel aspect ratio."
I guess from ffprobe reports it should be quite clear that by SAR they mean pixel (one of them, not whole picture) dimensional aspect? Sorry, not read text yet ....
Den 17.01.2024 20:22, skrev Andrea paz:
@ Andrea, I forgot to ask if you have a chance to make some screenshots examples? I think it will ease a lot to clarify the text. ;) @Terje One idea is to put some pictures, another is to make a video to put privately on CinGG's Youtube channel; so you can only watch it from the link in the manual. It seems to me that too many pictures in an appendix weighs down the manual too much. However, I don't have a problem with putting pictures up.
Good idea with video ;)
With your other file (5sec_dv01_03.dv) what test do you propose to do?
I postet it mostly because you wanted it, possibly to compare HDV and DV formats. As known, SD DV has been the most widespread digital video format (before HDV and later FHD took over). All my analog Hi8 (SVideo) tape kasettes have been digitized via an A/D converter to SD-DV format. This plain PAL 4:3 DV with PCM audio could possibly be used as a "minitest" for DVD Render and BD Render. But I think Phyllis has used a lot DV format of more useful clip lengts to this purpose, maybe already in the manual(?)
One thing that is still unclear to me is why CinGG and ffmpeg indicate SAR instead of PAR. How this affects the workflow and whether their SAR is something new that applies to both normal SAR and PAR, or whether it just changes the name but remains a "pixel aspect ratio."
One answer on StackExchange: SAR is defined in MPEG-2 spec (ISO/IEC 13818-2) as sample aspect ratio. There is no PAR. Storage Aspect Ratio appears to be invented by some app vendor. https://superuser.com/questions/1702195/whats-the-difference-between-sar-par... Yet, with DAR = SAR * PAR HDV 1080i: 16/9 = (1440/1080) * (4/3) = 1.7778 HDV 1280p: 16/9 = (1280/720) * (1/1) = 1.7778
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 12:54 Andrea paz <[email protected]>:
I have prepared version 3.
640 x 486 --> scale horizontally by 11/10 --> 704 x 486 --> pad to 720 --> 720 x 720x486 I think last element should be read as just 720*486 ?
One consideration: The render produces an interlaced media. RMB --> Info --> Assett Interlacing does not provide this information, but in RMB --> Info --> Detail there are two entries regarding interlacing ("interlace (container level): -1" and "interlace (codec level): -1"). I think it is the avi format that does not provide this information. Using the dv_pal.qt render preset has this information (Top Fields First). Does this test of mine appear to be true to you?
From what I understand, PAR is the ratio of the sides of a single pixel while DAR and SAR are the ratio of the sides of the frame. Why confuse the two types of ratio is beyond me. It is true that mathematically three variables connected by a formula can be expressed by eliminating one variable replaced by the other two variables. So PAR is only and always referred to as DAR/SAR. Perhaps that is how ffmpeg works, using only SAR and DAR and their relationship in the code. However, it seems to me that the SAR indicated by ffprobe (and by CinGG) is exactly PAR and not DAR/SAR.
Thank you for the 720 x 720 x 480; I made the correction.
Den 17.01.2024 01:34, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 03:07 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:53, skrev Andrea paz: >> I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). >> But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here? >> >> >> I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. > The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG > with root permissions.
Well, maybe you saw I actually had root access, but tried instead to write to a directory I had renamed 😳 > > @Terje > Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the > manual (the third part). Can you check this as well?
Seems fine for me.
> Plus I would like > to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no > knowledge of it....
Yes, let us co-operate on a BD use case next, but first I suggest to complete the 16:9 HDV to 16:9 DV use case successful ;)
well, may be just use DVD render but abort it at second (batchrender) window, and render normally ?
if dvd render set scaler automatically you hopefully just can reuse its settings for wide dv encoding?
but watch out for interlace reversal ... :( (tff for hdv, bff for dv).
Yes, I think that can do the trick. I got it to work, but I hope this workaround can be more plain and clearly, if it is possible to "copy" the DVD Scale button in some way to the File Render window. I felt I had not completely control over what happened. By the way, here is the procedure I think did work for me: 1. Loaded the HDV 2. Started File > DVD Render, selected Format: PAL (25.00) 16x9, Scale: Scaled, and OK 3. Batch (DVD) Render window opens 4. Started File > Render and closed the Batch Render window 5. Edited file path and file name, File Format: FFmpeg - avi (or dv), Audio: Preset avi_pcm, Video: dv_pal.avi, and before OK! 6. Open Set Format, verify the Canvas size has changed to 720x576 and DAR 16:9, Switch Interlace mode to: Bottom Field First, OK 7. Lastly OK on the Render Window (5) and rendering begin Confusingly 2. and 3 partly may create DVD directories which can be deleted. Tried both TFF and BFF The bottom line is that this trick and workaround created DV 16x9 files which all displayed correct due to [SAR 64;45 and DAR 16:9] 😎 ffprobe -hide_banner dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s mediainfo dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Bottom Field First ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv [dv @ 0x55b67a8e1580] Estimating duration from bitrate, this may be inaccurate Input #0, dv, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv': Metadata: timecode : 00:00:00:00 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 28800 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First
So may be you need more complex hdv interlaced = to frames -> scale down fields independently = > encode
procedure .... https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/480.html
If you just deinterlace then scale it will be simpler, i think. Because we not start with upscaled interlaced SD ....
To repeat and extract from the long thread, we can start from from my dialog with Andrew below: https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2024-January/007699.html
================= > I wonder how much was cropped? > > May be I misread you but you loaded HDV 1440*1080 clip and then > rendered it into ffmpeg DV at 576i WITHOUT any scaling on top? > -------------------- Yes, I loaded the anamorphic 16:9 HDV 1440x1080 clip and then rendered it using Set Format Preset PAL 576i (16:9)-DV(D) - without any scaling on top. According to my understanding this should down-convert the full source image to DVD 16:9 anamorphic format, which at playback should display upscaled 16:9 screen. That is, just as in my first post
4 b) FFmpeg transcode HDV to DV-wide ffmpeg -hide_banner -i hdv07_05.m2t -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 -c:v dvvideo -c:a pcm_s16le dv07_05_wide.dv ---------------------------- DVD Render Format autoscales the input HDV format to fit the selected 16x9 DVD output format. When input format and output rendering formats are identical, it seems that nothing needs to be set/edited manually in Set Format.
Then the unavoidable request/suggestion: Could correspondingly different I/O format via selected Presets also bake in Autoscale as default (beside color space mentioned before) ? (refer to the: -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 in the ffmpeg line below) --------------------------- I think no, it was intended to give users control over what kind of filters they want to apply. Even with ffmpeg you still manually add scale filter ... ----------------------------- Fx. the DVD Render window has a Scale dropdown menu, where "Scaled" is default. The other options are None and Cropped (various). As an additional test I rendered with None, and then got similar 16:9 output displayed as ffmpeg-avi. (The Raw DV differed with 4_3 display) ============
Here we are currently. I hoped to get this down-convert/scale Rendering via Set Format Preset as easy as corresponding DVD Render (and BD-Render) using a user selectable "Scale switch". If this is not easy, possible or desirable, I hope you can add the detailed Scale steps in this case from here, because I have no experience with this yet.
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 18:23 Terje J. Hanssen <[email protected]>:
Den 17.01.2024 01:34, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 03:07 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:53, skrev Andrea paz:
I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here?
I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG with root permissions.
Well, maybe you saw I actually had root access, but tried instead to write to a directory I had renamed 😳
@Terje Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the manual (the third part). Can you check this as well?
Seems fine for me.
Plus I would like to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no knowledge of it....
Yes, let us co-operate on a BD use case next, but first I suggest to complete the 16:9 HDV to 16:9 DV use case successful ;)
well, may be just use DVD render but abort it at second (batchrender) window, and render normally ?
if dvd render set scaler automatically you hopefully just can reuse its settings for wide dv encoding?
but watch out for interlace reversal ... :( (tff for hdv, bff for dv).
Yes, I think that can do the trick. I got it to work, but I hope this workaround can be more plain and clearly, if it is possible to "copy" the DVD Scale button in some way to the File Render window.
I felt I had not completely control over what happened.
Heh :) In this case you hopefully can just save scale plugin/effect setting as they set up by DVD wizard for your case and then just manually apply effect over whole video track and set its parameters from profile? Even without GUI you can copy xml file from .bcast5 directory to your favorite place and then copy ot back when you need to render with those specific parameters again. Sort of settings template By the way, here is the procedure I think did work for me:
1. Loaded the HDV 2. Started File > DVD Render, selected Format: PAL (25.00) 16x9, Scale: Scaled, and OK 3. Batch (DVD) Render window opens 4. Started File > Render and closed the Batch Render window 5. Edited file path and file name, File Format: FFmpeg - avi (or dv), Audio: Preset avi_pcm, Video: dv_pal.avi, and before OK! 6. Open Set Format, verify the Canvas size has changed to 720x576 and DAR 16:9, Switch Interlace mode to: Bottom Field First, OK 7. Lastly OK on the Render Window (5) and rendering begin
Confusingly 2. and 3 partly may create DVD directories which can be deleted.
yeah, this is just workaround. I do not feel very comfortable doing GUI work, and I do not feel special-casing workflow into generic rendering window will be good idea...
Tried both TFF and BFF The bottom line is that this trick and workaround created DV 16x9 files which all displayed correct due to [SAR 64;45 and DAR 16:9] 😎
but do they display smooth motion? I am still worried about field dominance :)
ffprobe -hide_banner dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First
ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Bottom Field First
ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv [dv @ 0x55b67a8e1580] Estimating duration from bitrate, this may be inaccurate Input #0, dv, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv': Metadata: timecode : 00:00:00:00 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 28800 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First
So may be you need more complex hdv interlaced = to frames -> scale down fields independently = > encode
procedure .... https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/480.html
If you just deinterlace then scale it will be simpler, i think. Because we not start with upscaled interlaced SD ....
To repeat and extract from the long thread, we can start from from my
dialog with Andrew below: https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2024-January/007699.html
=================
I wonder how much was cropped?
May be I misread you but you loaded HDV 1440*1080 clip and then rendered it into ffmpeg DV at 576i WITHOUT any scaling on top?
-------------------- Yes, I loaded the anamorphic 16:9 HDV 1440x1080 clip and then rendered it using Set Format Preset PAL 576i (16:9)-DV(D) - without any scaling on top. According to my understanding this should down-convert the full source image to DVD 16:9 anamorphic format, which at playback should display upscaled 16:9 screen. That is, just as in my first post
4 b) FFmpeg transcode HDV to DV-wide ffmpeg -hide_banner -i hdv07_05.m2t -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 -c:v dvvideo -c:a pcm_s16le dv07_05_wide.dv ---------------------------- DVD Render Format autoscales the input HDV format to fit the selected 16x9 DVD output format. When input format and output rendering formats are identical, it seems that nothing needs to be set/edited manually in Set Format.
Then the unavoidable request/suggestion: Could correspondingly different I/O format via selected Presets also bake in Autoscale as default (beside color space mentioned before) ? (refer to the: -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 in the ffmpeg line below) --------------------------- I think no, it was intended to give users control over what kind of filters they want to apply. Even with ffmpeg you still manually add scale filter ... ----------------------------- Fx. the DVD Render window has a Scale dropdown menu, where "Scaled" is default. The other options are None and Cropped (various). As an additional test I rendered with None, and then got similar 16:9 output displayed as ffmpeg-avi. (The Raw DV differed with 4_3 display) ============
Here we are currently. I hoped to get this down-convert/scale Rendering via Set Format Preset as easy as corresponding DVD Render (and BD-Render) using a user selectable "Scale switch". If this is not easy, possible or desirable, I hope you can add the detailed Scale steps in this case from here, because I have no experience with this yet.
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Den 17.01.2024 19:59, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 18:23 Terje J. Hanssen <[email protected]>:
Den 17.01.2024 01:34, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
ср, 17 янв. 2024 г., 03:07 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected]>:
Den 16.01.2024 17:53, skrev Andrea paz: >> I just installed the latest cin-x86_64 AppImage, started as root, loaded a HDV clip to test to create a BD iso/structure, without Blu-ray device connected (similar like testing create DVD). >> But I got the following error message; any idea what is wrong here? >> >> >> I think BD-Render currently is locked to AVCHD (h264) video and ac3 audio only. > The same mistake I had. To do a BD/DVD render we need to run CinGG > with root permissions.
Well, maybe you saw I actually had root access, but tried instead to write to a directory I had renamed 😳 > > @Terje > Thanks for the corrections. I put the new version of the text for the > manual (the third part). Can you check this as well?
Seems fine for me.
> Plus I would like > to ask you if you could add a "Use Case" for BDs, since I have no > knowledge of it....
Yes, let us co-operate on a BD use case next, but first I suggest to complete the 16:9 HDV to 16:9 DV use case successful ;)
well, may be just use DVD render but abort it at second (batchrender) window, and render normally ?
if dvd render set scaler automatically you hopefully just can reuse its settings for wide dv encoding?
but watch out for interlace reversal ... :( (tff for hdv, bff for dv).
Yes, I think that can do the trick. I got it to work, but I hope this workaround can be more plain and clearly, if it is possible to "copy" the DVD Scale button in some way to the File Render window.
I felt I had not completely control over what happened.
Heh :) In this case you hopefully can just save scale plugin/effect setting as they set up by DVD wizard for your case and then just manually apply effect over whole video track and set its parameters from profile? Even without GUI you can copy xml file from .bcast5 directory to your favorite place and then copy ot back when you need to render with those specific parameters again. Sort of settings template
Could you think of making a couple of CinGG demo videos to manual, for the following use cases: 1) Rendering HD(V) to 16x9 SD-DV (anamorhic down-conversion with oversampling) 2) Rendering HD(V) to 16x9 DVD video 3) Rendering 16x9 DV to 16x9 DVD video Another, very illustrative reference I will suggest to this manual topic(s): https://www.sandelinmedia.com/widescreen/
By the way, here is the procedure I think did work for me:
1. Loaded the HDV 2. Started File > DVD Render, selected Format: PAL (25.00) 16x9, Scale: Scaled, and OK 3. Batch (DVD) Render window opens 4. Started File > Render and closed the Batch Render window 5. Edited file path and file name, File Format: FFmpeg - avi (or dv), Audio: Preset avi_pcm, Video: dv_pal.avi, and before OK! 6. Open Set Format, verify the Canvas size has changed to 720x576 and DAR 16:9, Switch Interlace mode to: Bottom Field First, OK 7. Lastly OK on the Render Window (5) and rendering begin
Confusingly 2. and 3 partly may create DVD directories which can be deleted.
yeah, this is just workaround. I do not feel very comfortable doing GUI work, and I do not feel special-casing workflow into generic rendering window will be good idea...
Well, in principle I prefer to utilize and combine the best of both worlds, complementary when possible. GUI for visual overview, easy accessibility of non-familiar testing or new features/applications. CLI for effectivity, and understanding when experience, yes. When I started with CPM/DOS and Unix and Uniplex, the most were CLI based.
Tried both TFF and BFF The bottom line is that this trick and workaround created DV 16x9 files which all displayed correct due to [SAR 64;45 and DAR 16:9] 😎
but do they display smooth motion? I am still worried about field dominance :)
ffprobe -hide_banner dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv07_05_wide_cingg.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First
ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi Input #0, avi, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi': Metadata: software : Lavf60.16.100 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 30342 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo (dvsd / 0x64737664), yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 28802 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le ([1][0][0][0] / 0x0001), 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.avi | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Bottom Field First
ffprobe -hide_banner dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv [dv @ 0x55b67a8e1580] Estimating duration from bitrate, this may be inaccurate Input #0, dv, from 'dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv': Metadata: timecode : 00:00:00:00 Duration: 00:06:58.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 28800 kb/s Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
mediainfo dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv | grep Scan Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First
So may be you need more complex hdv interlaced = to frames -> scale down fields independently = > encode
procedure .... https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/480.html
If you just deinterlace then scale it will be simpler, i think. Because we not start with upscaled interlaced SD ....
To repeat and extract from the long thread, we can start from from my dialog with Andrew below: https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2024-January/007699.html
================= > I wonder how much was cropped? > > May be I misread you but you loaded HDV 1440*1080 clip and then > rendered it into ffmpeg DV at 576i WITHOUT any scaling on top? > -------------------- Yes, I loaded the anamorphic 16:9 HDV 1440x1080 clip and then rendered it using Set Format Preset PAL 576i (16:9)-DV(D) - without any scaling on top. According to my understanding this should down-convert the full source image to DVD 16:9 anamorphic format, which at playback should display upscaled 16:9 screen. That is, just as in my first post
4 b) FFmpeg transcode HDV to DV-wide ffmpeg -hide_banner -i hdv07_05.m2t -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 -c:v dvvideo -c:a pcm_s16le dv07_05_wide.dv ---------------------------- DVD Render Format autoscales the input HDV format to fit the selected 16x9 DVD output format. When input format and output rendering formats are identical, it seems that nothing needs to be set/edited manually in Set Format.
Then the unavoidable request/suggestion: Could correspondingly different I/O format via selected Presets also bake in Autoscale as default (beside color space mentioned before) ? (refer to the: -vf scale=720:576,setsar=64/45,setdar=16/9 in the ffmpeg line below) --------------------------- I think no, it was intended to give users control over what kind of filters they want to apply. Even with ffmpeg you still manually add scale filter ... ----------------------------- Fx. the DVD Render window has a Scale dropdown menu, where "Scaled" is default. The other options are None and Cropped (various). As an additional test I rendered with None, and then got similar 16:9 output displayed as ffmpeg-avi. (The Raw DV differed with 4_3 display) ============
Here we are currently. I hoped to get this down-convert/scale Rendering via Set Format Preset as easy as corresponding DVD Render (and BD-Render) using a user selectable "Scale switch". If this is not easy, possible or desirable, I hope you can add the detailed Scale steps in this case from here, because I have no experience with this yet.
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Thanks for the link to stackexchange. Reading this post and others (also the discussion on ffmpeg from when they switched from PAR to SAR) I think the formula: "Yet, with DAR = SAR * PAR HDV 1080i: 16/9 = (1440/1080) * (4/3) = 1.7778 HDV 1280p: 16/9 = (1280/720) * (1/1) = 1.7778" is more correct to write it (for ffmpeg and CinGG): DAR = Width/Height * SAR that is, the (4/3) and the (1/1) are now the SAR and not the PAR. So it is no longer spelled PAR, but always just W/H and SAR. SAR, at this point, is a "pixel aspect ratio" I tried changing the txt (version 4). Do you think it is okay? It is likely to be wrong. @Terje For videos, can I ask you to do 2 and 3? I have never used and don't really understand how DVD/BR works; and I haven't had players/burner for a long time.
Den 18.01.2024 20:05, skrev Andrea paz:
Thanks for the link to stackexchange. Reading this post and others (also the discussion on ffmpeg from when they switched from PAR to SAR) I think the formula:
"Yet, with DAR = SAR * PAR
HDV 1080i: 16/9 = (1440/1080) * (4/3) = 1.7778 HDV 1280p: 16/9 = (1280/720) * (1/1) = 1.7778"
is more correct to write it (for ffmpeg and CinGG):
DAR = Width/Height * SAR
that is, the (4/3) and the (1/1) are now the SAR and not the PAR.
So it is no longer spelled PAR, but always just W/H and SAR. SAR, at this point, is a "pixel aspect ratio" I tried changing the txt (version 4). Do you think it is okay? It is likely to be wrong.
Well, I have prioritized more to understand what happends than interprete the somewhat ambiguous definitions. (the order of the factors is indifferent). https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18877243/why-ffmpeg-print-sar-instead-of... I think of SAR in the FFmpeg output as a correction factor for the recordered picture frame format resolution (Wp), to get the desired output display resolution (expanded Wd with square px) at a given DAR, (or in opposite order). I found a useful table at ffmpeg-user that contains information for practically all SD and HD video formats. Maybe something for the manual? https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg27522.html display DAR picture PAR SAR = DAR/PAR =========== ==== =========== ==== ===== 16:9-2160: 3840 x 2160 16:9 : 3840 x 2160 16:9 : 1:1 4:3-2160: 2880 x 2160 4:3 : 2880 x 2160 4:3 : 1:1 16:9-1080: 1920 x 1080 16:9 : 1920 x 1080 16:9 : 1:1 4:3-1080: 1440 x 1080 4:3 : 1440 x 1080 4:3 : 1:1 16:9-576: 1024 x 576 16:9 : 720 x 576 5:4 : 64:45 4:3-576: 768 x 576 4:3 : 720 x 576 5:4 : 16:15 16:9-480: 853 x 480 16:9 : 720 x 480 3:2 : 32:27 4:3-480: 640 x 480 4:3 : 720 x 480 3:2 : 8:9 With FFprobe I have verified the Picure resolution, SAR and DAR for the PAL SD DV(D) and HDV formats I'm using: ffprobe dv01_07.dv 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep Video Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 16:15 DAR 4:3], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc ffprobe dv07_05_wide_cingg.dv 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep Video Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 16:15 DAR 4:3], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc ffprobe dv_16x9_cingg_20240117.dv 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep Video Stream #0:0: Video: dvvideo, yuv420p, 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc ffprobe dvd_16x9.mpg 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep Video Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt709/unknown/unknown, top first), 720x576 [SAR 64:45 DAR 16:9], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc ffprobe hdv07_05.m2t 2>&1 >/dev/null | grep Video Stream #0:0[0x810]: Video: mpeg2video (Main) ([2][0][0][0] / 0x0002), yuv420p(tv, bt709, top first), 1440x1080 [SAR 4:3 DAR 16:9], 25000 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
@Terje For videos, can I ask you to do 2 and 3? I have never used and don't really understand how DVD/BR works; and I haven't had players/burner for a long time.
OK, I see there already is a lot stuff in the manual chpt 14. I would expect a video is something Phyllis could do, but I also know she is busy with a lot of work (?) I think I can contribute with some additional screenshots for HDV to a 16x19 DVD and BD. Andrew may possibly also add the procedure for a DVD video with LPCM(?)
Feedback: I found a useful table at ffmpeg-user that contains information for
practically all SD and HD video formats. Maybe something for the manual? https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg27522.html
Nice url reference and table -- the manual is almost getting too big! and maybe it is better not to repeat things that can be fairly easily found on the internet. On the other hand, if include a url, then sometimes that disappears. So it is a quandary. @Terje For videos, can I ask you to do 2 and 3? I have never used and don't really understand how DVD/BR works; and I haven't had players/burner for a long time. OK, I see there already is a lot stuff in the manual chpt 14. I would
expect a video is something Phyllis could do, but I also know she is busy with a lot of work (?) I think I can contribute with some additional screenshots for HDV to a 16x19 DVD and BD. Andrew may possibly also add the procedure for a DVD video with LPCM(?)
I can eventually do a video (when I find the time). I think we should put the screenshots in another document as the DVD/Bluray section is already 30 pages long - almost as long as the Editing chapter - and it is a rarely used part of CinGG. But I will add the DVD video with LPCM that Andrew outlined after I get a chance to test it.
On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 12:06 PM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I tried changing the txt (version 4). Do you think it is okay? It is likely to be wrong.
In reviewing AspectRatio_4.tar.gz, I have the following commentary.
However, some of this is JUST MY OPINION because the person doing the work, i.e. Andrea, is the ultimate decision maker! 1) First section "Set Format" seems like a good explanation and placement for the main body of the manual. 2) Second section "Aspect ratio (Theory)" is so detailed in certain areas, like Super 36 mm, which a lot of us don't even know what it is, that I think maybe it too should be in the appendix. Again, just my opinion. 3) I did notice 1 typing mistake (worflow) and a little bit of structure (like commas) that I can change once it is ready to actually go in the manual. 4) Sentence in the appendix/3rd section "[NOTE3: CinGG and ffmpeg use to indicate PAR as SAR.". Is "use to" supposed to read "used to" as in "did previously"?
As usual I made a mistake and put out another text (in a new email: ) also calling it 4 instead of 5... Please delete the old version 4 and leave only the new one, there are many changes... Instead of putting a new appendix we could make an external pdf and in the manual put only the links of the third part. For point 4, you are right, go ahead and change the sentence. For point 2, it doesn't involve anamorphic formats, so I was thinking of leaving it in Chapter 2. But if you think it is too long we can put it in the appendices as "Real world use case."
Just wondering why not just use? https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Preserving_Camcorder_Media.pdf On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 6:02 PM Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
According to wikipedia, 16:9 SD video formats are also valid BD-Video formats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video
SD 720 × 480 29.97i 4:3 or 16:9[d] (anamorhic) 720 × 576 25i 4:3 or 16:9[d]
The Create BD Format contains 720 x 576/ 25i/p and 720 x 480/ 29.97i/p
Please verify if this these are SD 4:3 only? The wikipedia table lists only SD interlaced as valid SD BD-Video format
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
вт, 16 янв. 2024 г., 22:51 Phyllis Smith via Cin <[email protected]
:
Just wondering why not just use? https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Preserving_Camcorder_Media.pdf
I guess we like obscure adventures :)
anyway, it will be interesting to see if older 1440 files (if you have any) plays autocorrectly or not. I think according to whitepaper I send to you privately most files must be 16:9 on bluray (apart from SD sized variants)
On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 6:02 PM Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
According to wikipedia, 16:9 SD video formats are also valid BD-Video formats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video
SD 720 × 480 29.97i 4:3 or 16:9[d] (anamorhic) 720 × 576 25i 4:3 or 16:9[d]
The Create BD Format contains 720 x 576/ 25i/p and 720 x 480/ 29.97i/p
Please verify if this these are SD 4:3 only? The wikipedia table lists only SD interlaced as valid SD BD-Video format
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Den 16.01.2024 20:50, skrev Phyllis Smith:
Just wondering why not just use? https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Preserving_Camcorder_Media.pdf
I don't think I had or used native SD 16:9 sources and that paper was ffmpeg and tsmuxer based. (Else I experimented a bit with cropping 4:3 to 16:9 using DeVeDe, but that is throwing some of the images away)
On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 6:02 PM Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected]> wrote:
According to wikipedia, 16:9 SD video formats are also valid BD-Video formats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video
SD 720 × 480 29.97i 4:3 or 16:9[d] (anamorhic) 720 × 576 25i 4:3 or 16:9[d]
The Create BD Format contains 720 x 576/ 25i/p and 720 x 480/ 29.97i/p
Please verify if this these are SD 4:3 only? The wikipedia table lists only SD interlaced as valid SD BD-Video format
If so, SD 16:9 interlaced are missing, while SD progressive are invalid? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
participants (4)
-
Andrea paz -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Phyllis Smith -
Terje J. Hanssen