Formats and Codecs in CinGG
I present a first draft to create Appendix section about formats and codecs supported by CinGG. I don't know DV; DVD; BLU RAY and RAW formats. If anyone uses them and can provide better info, it would be my pleasure. Also the info on MOV as a good format for editing I have only read and not understood well. Are they correct? Corrections, additions and advice are welcome. The bigger question is: is it worth stretching the already big manual with this section? [NOTE: is not what Terje requested; I'm not sure how to implement those tables. If you can write them, then I'll transpose them into Latex...]
Den 15.11.2021 15:18, skrev Andrea paz via Cin:
I present a first draft to create Appendix section about formats and codecs supported by CinGG. I don't know DV; DVD; BLU RAY and RAW formats. If anyone uses them and can provide better info, it would be my pleasure. Also the info on MOV as a good format for editing I have only read and not understood well. Are they correct? Corrections, additions and advice are welcome. The bigger question is: is it worth stretching the already big manual with this section? [NOTE: is not what Terje requested; I'm not sure how to implement those tables. If you can write them, then I'll transpose them into Latex...]
@ Andrea Thank you. My feedback is that your Appendix draft is a very good overview of file formats and codecs supported by CinGG. I've read it twice and think I have already learned more ;) I think many users with me, have been more or less confused or unsure that the fileformat really is the container, which again offers different codecs (compression), bit depth (pr samle), pixels (color depth), bitrate and quality. Additional there are presets for codecs and compression levels (x26x, time, qualities). A minor comment: Is the AAC M4A audio format of interest to add on the audio format list? Dedicated File>BD Render and DVD Render standard video formats has been tested to work according to the manual. If useful some additonal format specifications may be found in wikipedia or other sources. HDV -> Blu-ray Wikipedia HDV/Distributing say * For consumer use, HDV-sourced video can be delivered on a Blu-ray Disc without re-encoding * can be converted to AVCHD and delivered on an AVCHD disc * or can be downconverted to DVD-Video. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Distributing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video The first option is of special interest to get HDV.M2T from HDV tapes to Blu-ray Disc Without Re-encoding for preserving the HDV sources. I think this has to be a BDAV plain' format that is intended for home video with no interactivity. A BDAV disc is basically video on a disc. Content on a BDAV disc is playable on a Blu-ray Disc player from beginning to end. As discussed previously, it is possible to transcode HDV.M2T audio to AC3 with ffmpeg first, render and burn a BDMV disc format. https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/HDV_on_Blu_ray_Disc_Wit... @Andrea and Phyllis Because of several encoding variables to opt and combine, test and possibly fail, I began to think it might be easier and safer if it is possible to ready-make preset render profiles for most useful work? Then it could also be easier to make comparisions of render profiles based on their content in tables or not. I aggree the full table feature support in AVC profiles is very complicated. My intention was to look at its first (three top) lines just as an principle example regarding Profile names, Bit depth, Chroma formats and so complement with codecs, bitrate etc relevant for CinGG/ffmpeg. Possibly pure text descriptions may work as well as overview comparison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Video_Coding#Feature_support_in_parti... Terje J. H
A minor comment: Is the AAC M4A audio format of interest to add on the audio format list?
From FFmpeg's website:
" FFmpeg supports two AAC-LC encoders (aac and libfdk_aac) and one HE-AAC (v1/2) encoder (libfdk_aac). The license of libfdk_aac is not compatible with GPL, so the GPL does not permit distribution of binaries containing incompatible code when GPL-licensed code is also included. Therefore this encoder have been designated as "non-free", and you cannot download a pre-built ffmpeg that supports it. This can be resolved by compiling ffmpeg yourself." [...] "Requires ffmpeg to be configured with --enable-libfdk-aac (and additionally --enable-nonfree if you're also using --enable-gpl)"
HDV -> Blu-ray Wikipedia HDV/Distributing say * For consumer use, HDV-sourced video can be delivered on a Blu-ray Disc without re-encoding * can be converted to AVCHD and delivered on an AVCHD disc * or can be downconverted to DVD-Video.
I don't understand if CinGG offers these possibilities. Is it perhaps the "bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s" preset? Another question: does DV include HDV (and DVPRO)? I haven't found any presets or parameters naming HDV.
Den 19.11.2021 14:58, skrev Andrea paz:
A minor comment: Is the AAC M4A audio format of interest to add on the audio format list? From FFmpeg's website:
" FFmpeg supports two AAC-LC encoders (aac and libfdk_aac) and one HE-AAC (v1/2) encoder (libfdk_aac). The license of libfdk_aac is not compatible with GPL, so the GPL does not permit distribution of binaries containing incompatible code when GPL-licensed code is also included. Therefore this encoder have been designated as "non-free", and you cannot download a pre-built ffmpeg that supports it. This can be resolved by compiling ffmpeg yourself." [...] "Requires ffmpeg to be configured with --enable-libfdk-aac (and additionally --enable-nonfree if you're also using --enable-gpl)"
HDV -> Blu-ray Wikipedia HDV/Distributing say * For consumer use, HDV-sourced video can be delivered on a Blu-ray Disc without re-encoding * can be converted to AVCHD and delivered on an AVCHD disc * or can be downconverted to DVD-Video. I don't understand if CinGG offers these possibilities. Is it perhaps the "bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s" preset?
Another question: does DV include HDV (and DVPRO)? I haven't found any presets or parameters naming HDV.
Den 19.11.2021 14:58, skrev Andrea paz:
A minor comment: Is the AAC M4A audio format of interest to add on the audio format list? From FFmpeg's website:
" FFmpeg supports two AAC-LC encoders (aac and libfdk_aac) and one HE-AAC (v1/2) encoder (libfdk_aac). The license of libfdk_aac is not compatible with GPL, so the GPL does not permit distribution of binaries containing incompatible code when GPL-licensed code is also included. Therefore this encoder have been designated as "non-free", and you cannot download a pre-built ffmpeg that supports it. This can be resolved by compiling ffmpeg yourself." [...] "Requires ffmpeg to be configured with --enable-libfdk-aac (and additionally --enable-nonfree if you're also using --enable-gpl)"
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation: ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax)
HDV -> Blu-ray Wikipedia HDV/Distributing say 1. For consumer use, HDV-sourced video can be delivered on a Blu-ray Disc without re-encoding 2. can be converted to AVCHD and delivered on an AVCHD disc 3. or can be downconverted to DVD-Video. I don't understand if CinGG offers these possibilities. Is it perhaps the "bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s" preset?
Where did you see the latter preset? (I think it is DV SD on Blu-ray).
Another question: does DV include HDV (and DVPRO)? I haven't found any presets or parameters naming HDV.
DV (DV25) is SD video while the successor HDV is mpeg-2 High Definition video. Both DV and HDV are recorded on mini DV tapes. HDV camcorders may also record DV format. To copy hdv and dv from tape to PC/disc, firewire is used. DV camcorders may also playback digital signal via HDMI port out. Andrew added a HDV format patch a year ago https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg02038.html DV ref. https://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/term.cfm/dv HDV ref. https://www.expandore.com/product/sony/proav/model/HDV/QNA.htm Terje J. H
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation: ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax)
Good to know! So if ffmpeg present in CinGG supports AAC, just make presets to be able to use them.
Where did you see the latter preset? (I think it is DV SD on Blu-ray).
Sorry for my ignorance on Blu Ray and DV/HDV. The presets I found are in the attached bluray-DV.jpg image. Instead, the presets of Andrew that you have indicated, are perhaps those in the image bluray-HDV.jpg? I can't find any HDV or similar. Do you only use "Create BD" or "Create DVD" to make a BD/DVD, and not the presets found in the rendering window? [FFMPEG --> mt2s --> "wrench" --> bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s] What is the purpose of the latter?
Den 20.11.2021 09:40, skrev Andrea paz:
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation: ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax) Good to know! So if ffmpeg present in CinGG supports AAC, just make presets to be able to use them.
Yes, I think so. The output above was from my openSUSE system's ffmpeg after adding multimedia codecs and enabled applications following the unofficial guide: https://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php
Where did you see the latter preset? (I think it is DV SD on Blu-ray). Sorry for my ignorance on Blu Ray and DV/HDV. The presets I found are in the attached bluray-DV.jpg image. Instead, the presets of Andrew that you have indicated, are perhaps those in the image bluray-HDV.jpg?
Yes, FHD, HDV and SD DV are identified here by their standard pixel resolution, frame rate and interlaced or progressive video. ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio#Pixel_aspect_ratios_of_comm...
I can't find any HDV or similar.
Compare also with Settings>Format window's Presets up to the left (where HDV and DV are listed for the Import video)
Do you only use "Create BD" or "Create DVD" to make a BD/DVD, and not the presets found in the rendering window? [FFMPEG --> mt2s --> "wrench" --> bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s] What is the purpose of the latter?
I think I have tested both methods, mostly in 2016/201, and just a few later. (Beside I have digitized several analog S-video to DV video files and recorded them to BD-R data discs as backup. I have at least 20-30 of each Hi8 and HDV tapes left). I could not find manual documentation for the presets. So possibly Andrew with better knowledge may step in here and explain better? I will just add that It possible to render various .m2ts files, test mediainfo and playback using a media player like VLC. As known a Blu-ray player device need a standard Blu-ray disc directory structure (bdwrite) for playback, i.e tree -h bd_20161216-153642 bd_20161216-153642 ├── [183M] bd.m2ts ├── [ 394] bd.sh ├── [191M] bd.udfs ├── [5.3K] bd.xml └── [4.0K] udfs 1 directory, 4 files While DVD use MPEG-2, I cannot see MPEG-2 with high bitrate for SD DV (or HDV) on Blu-ray is possible? Terje J. H
On Sunday, November 21, 2021, Terje J. Hanssen via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
Den 20.11.2021 09:40, skrev Andrea paz:
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation:
ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax)
Good to know! So if ffmpeg present in CinGG supports AAC, just make presets to be able to use them.
Yes, I think so. The output above was from my openSUSE system's ffmpeg after adding multimedia codecs and enabled applications following the unofficial guide: https://opensuse-guide.org/codecs.php
Where did you see the latter preset? (I think it is DV SD on Blu-ray).
Sorry for my ignorance on Blu Ray and DV/HDV. The presets I found are in the attached bluray-DV.jpg image. Instead, the presets of Andrew that you have indicated, are perhaps those in the image bluray-HDV.jpg?
Yes, FHD, HDV and SD DV are identified here by their standard pixel resolution, frame rate and interlaced or progressive video. ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio#Pixel_aspec t_ratios_of_common_video_formats
I can't find any HDV or similar.
Compare also with Settings>Format window's Presets up to the left (where HDV and DV are listed for the Import video)
Do you only use "Create BD" or "Create DVD" to make a BD/DVD, and not
the presets found in the rendering window? [FFMPEG --> mt2s --> "wrench" --> bluray_dv_pal(ntsc).mt2s] What is the purpose of the latter?
I think format presets used by bluray/dvd gui internally..
I think I have tested both methods, mostly in 2016/201, and just a few later. (Beside I have digitized several analog S-video to DV video files and recorded them to BD-R data discs as backup. I have at least 20-30 of each Hi8 and HDV tapes left).
I could not find manual documentation for the presets. So possibly Andrew with better knowledge may step in here and explain better?
https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/How_Create_FFmpeg_Optio... basically I just started with muxer codec pair in new options file, and then played with parameters..
I will just add that It possible to render various .m2ts files, test mediainfo and playback using a media player like VLC.
Note: vlc or other software player may tolerate streams hw player will choke on.. As known a Blu-ray player device need a standard Blu-ray disc directory
structure (bdwrite) for playback, i.e
tree -h bd_20161216-153642
bd_20161216-153642 ├── [183M] bd.m2ts ├── [ 394] bd.sh ├── [191M] bd.udfs ├── [5.3K] bd.xml └── [4.0K] udfs
1 directory, 4 files
While DVD use MPEG-2, I cannot see MPEG-2 with high bitrate for SD DV (or HDV) on Blu-ray is possible?
well, you can try to create mpeg2 m2ts profile and temporarily replace usual h264-based ones.. if this experiment resulted in working BD disk - we probably can add checkbox or menu selecting specific codec. Just bitrate for mpeg2 must be much higher for same quality at given resolution (saw 40 mbit/s fullhd file) , and blu-ray has hard limit on bitrates it can handle (from memory: around 25 mbit/s) ..
Terje J. H
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation: ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax)
I saw (I didn't know!) that the h264.mp4 (audio) preset uses the aac codec. So CinGG already offers the possibility to render in aac. Maybe it's better to change the name to "aac.mp4". I tried, but putting aac in the name leads to a different "samples" option (s16 instead of fltp) and it doesn't work. probably we should use the "libfdk_aac" codec instead of just "aac" (which I don't know what it is and how it works!). But this is not recognized because, i guess, thirdparty's ffmpeg is not compiled with the option for aac audio.
I think I have tested both methods, mostly in 2016/201, and just a few later. (Beside I have digitized several analog S-video to DV video files and recorded them to BD-R data discs as backup. I have at least 20-30 of each Hi8 and HDV tapes left).
So let me understand the workflow: 1- import the DV files into the PC with firewire (what do you use?) 2- Create a new project in CinGG using the DV/HDV presets. 3- Upload the files to CinGG. 4- Use "Create BD" for BD authoring 5- Burn the structured files to a BD-R disc (directly from CinGG or outside of it?). Is this correct? Thanks for all this info on topics I didn't know about!
Den 21.11.2021 13:21, skrev Andrea paz:
By adding extra codecs after the official distro installation: ffmpeg -v quiet -codecs | grep aac DEAIL. aac AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) (decoders: aac aac_fixed libfdk_aac ) (encoders: aac libfdk_aac ) D.AIL. aac_latm AAC LATM (Advanced Audio Coding LATM syntax) I saw (I didn't know!) that the h264.mp4 (audio) preset uses the aac codec. So CinGG already offers the possibility to render in aac. Maybe it's better to change the name to "aac.mp4". I tried, but putting aac in the name leads to a different "samples" option (s16 instead of fltp) and it doesn't work. probably we should use the "libfdk_aac" codec instead of just "aac" (which I don't know what it is and how it works!). But this is not recognized because, i guess, thirdparty's ffmpeg is not compiled with the option for aac audio.
----------------
I think I have tested both methods, mostly in 2016/2017, and just a few later. (Beside I have digitized several analog S-video to DV video files and recorded them to BD-R data discs as backup. I have at least 20-30 of each Hi8 and HDV tapes left). So let me understand the workflow: 1- import the DV files into the PC with firewire (what do you use?)
Well, I do an attempt: Analog Hi8 S-Video S-Video tape player ------------> TBC -----------> A/D-conv. (1992) + DV/HDV HDD Firewire PC Firewire rec/player ------------> DV/M2T HDV tape player ---------> (2007) The A/D converter is built-in the stand-alone DV/HDV HDD recorder/player device is connected with Firewire and mounted on Linux fs file copying similar like an external harddisk. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Datavideo-DN-300.jsp With digital DV or HDV tape camcorder/players only, the most usual on Linux has been to connect players via firewire directly to PC firewire port, and use 'dvgrab' on Linux to capture files from tape. https://www.linuxlinks.com/dvgrab/ --------------------
2- Create a new project in CinGG using the DV/HDV presets. 3- Upload the files to CinGG. 4- Use "Create BD" for BD authoring
I don't think it matters, but we probably used Batch render with m2ts https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/DVD_Bluray_Creation.htm...
5- Burn the structured files to a BD-R disc (directly from CinGG or outside of it?). Is this correct?
Thanks for all this info on topics I didn't know about!
The procedure as described in the manual section above, includes also to create a file system dependent of the disc type, BD-R (growiso) or BD-RW (preformat + udfs) ------------- Possibly Phyllis can confirm if a summary 'Create BD procedure' will be similar to the related 'HDV to Blu-ray' procedure as follows? https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/CinelerraGG_Manual/HDV_on_Blu_ray_Disc_Wit... HDV on a Blu-ray Disc Without Re-encoding An MTS file is a video file saved in the high-definition (HD) MPEG Transport Stream video format, commonly called AVCHD. It contains HD video compatible with Blu-ray disc format and is based on the MPEG-2 transport stream. MTS files are often used by Sony, Panasonic, Canon and other HD camcorders. Legal input for Video – MPEG1VIDEO, MPEG2VIDEO, H264; Audio – MP1, MP2, AC3, AC3PLUS, DTS, TRUHD. For creating a blu-ray disc, if you have HDV MPEG-2 media that is in blu-ray format, you can save the original quality of your work, rather than rendering it to another format. Follow the steps below directly instead of going through CINELERRA-GG. It has been tested on 10 different MTS files. du -sb /yourHDVfile.MTS # Determine the size of your file in bytes. blocks=((size-in-bytes/2048 + 4096)) # Convert bytes into blocks + a little more. mkudffs /tmp/newfilename.udfs blocks # Create a file with that \# of blocks + some extra. mount -o loop /tmp/newfilename.udfs /mntX # Use a mount point like mntX that is not in use. /<cinelerra_installed_path>/bin/bdwrite /mntX /tmp/yourHDVfile.MTS # Substitute \CGG{} path. umount /mntX # You must unmount the udfs filesystem growisofs -Z /dev/bd=/tmp/newfilename.udfs # Replace /dev/bd with your bluray hardware device. OR dd if=/tmp/newfilename.udfs of=/dev/bd bs=2048000 # if using rewritable blu-ray; replace bd. ----------------- Terje J. H
Den 21.11.2021 03:28, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
On Sunday, November 21, 2021, Terje J. Hanssen via Cin <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
............
As known a Blu-ray player device need a standard Blu-ray disc directory structure (bdwrite) for playback, i.e
tree -h bd_20161216-153642
bd_20161216-153642 ├── [183M] bd.m2ts ├── [ 394] bd.sh ├── [191M] bd.udfs ├── [5.3K] bd.xml └── [4.0K] udfs
1 directory, 4 files
Possibly the above file tree structure on hdd isn't complete as on the BD .........(should include BDMV ...)
While DVD use MPEG-2, I cannot see MPEG-2 with high bitrate for SD DV (or HDV) on Blu-ray is possible?
well, you can try to create mpeg2 m2ts profile and temporarily replace usual h264-based ones.. if this experiment resulted in working BD disk - we probably can add checkbox or menu selecting specific codec. Just bitrate for mpeg2 must be much higher for same quality at given resolution (saw 40 mbit/s fullhd file) , and blu-ray has hard limit on bitrates it can handle (from memory: around 25 mbit/s) ..
I add some more info to this part: Re. BD-R bit rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Bit_rate BD drive speeds/Data rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Drive_speeds In comparison DV: 25 Mbps (compression 5:1) DVD max 9.8 Mbps (SD, MPEG-2/MP@ML) HDV 1080i: 25 Mbps (MPEG-2/MP@H-14) ------------- info of interest from Vegas Pro manual (2020): https://dl03.magix.com/manual_vegaspro18_en_eij3hp.pdf page 478: Media File Settings for Blu-ray Disc Projects You can burn Blu-ray Disc projects to BD recordable discs using the BDMV format: A 25 GB single-layer BD recordable disc can store approximately 3 hours, 42 minutes of AVC video (15 Mbps) or 2 hours, 15 minutes of MPEG-2 video (25 Mbps). A 50 GB dual-layer BD recordable disc can store approximately 7 hours, 25 minutes of AVC video (15 Mbps) or 4 hours, 31 minutes of MPEG-2 video (25 Mbps) page 459: You can store large amounts of standard-definition MPEG-2 video on a BD disc. (page 459) ------------- Some other related stuff: Can you make a Blu-Ray with MPEG2 format? https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/291094-Can-you-make-a-Blu-Ray-with-MPEG2... Basic Guide for HDV to Blu-Ray. https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/284836-Basic-Guide-for-HDV-to-Blu-Ray Bitrate - 18Mbps or 25Mbps for HDV? https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blu-ray-authoring/240218-bitrate-18mbps-25mbps-... ------------ Terje J. H
Thank you very much! If you have improvements, additions, or changes for the DVD/BluRay chapter of the manual, please let us know.
Checked into GIT a new section in the Appendix based on Andrea's formats.txt. Now that we have the HTML version, it does not matter so much if the manual is getting bigger because you can view just a section. Thank you Andrea and please correct any of the errors I may have introduced or upgrade it based on you and Terje's discussions. On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 7:18 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I present a first draft to create Appendix section about formats and codecs supported by CinGG. I don't know DV; DVD; BLU RAY and RAW formats. If anyone uses them and can provide better info, it would be my pleasure. Also the info on MOV as a good format for editing I have only read and not understood well. Are they correct? Corrections, additions and advice are welcome. The bigger question is: is it worth stretching the already big manual with this section? [NOTE: is not what Terje requested; I'm not sure how to implement those tables. If you can write them, then I'll transpose them into Latex...] -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
participants (4)
-
Andrea paz -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Phyllis Smith -
Terje J. Hanssen