[Cin] Prepping HW upgrade options for AV1 de-/encoding
Terje J. Hanssen
terjejhanssen at gmail.com
Wed Dec 13 17:02:23 CET 2023
Den 11.12.2023 14:23, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
>
>
> пн, 11 дек. 2023 г., 16:13 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin
> <cin at lists.cinelerra-gg.org>:
>
>
>
> Den 08.12.2023 23:56, skrev Terje J. Hanssen:
>>
>>
>> Den 08.12.2023 12:50, skrev Andrew Randrianasulu:
>>>
>>>
>>> пт, 8 дек. 2023 г., 13:57 Andrew Randrianasulu
>>> <randrianasulu at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> пт, 8 дек. 2023 г., 13:37 Terje J. Hanssen via Cin
>>> <cin at lists.cinelerra-gg.org>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Den 03.12.2023 22:29, skrev Terje J. Hanssen:
>>>> Already touched this topic barely in another thread
>>>> https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/pipermail/cin/2023-December/007346.html
>>>>
>>>> But so many SW and HW pieces are mentioned around, it
>>>> is almost a full-time reading and study:
>>>> VAAPI, MESA, VULKAN, Intel Quick Sync Video etc......
>>>>
>>>> I realize my aging hardware which is fast enough for
>>>> other tasks, needs some "AV1 upgrade", if possible.
>>>>
>>>> But first I wonder, what is expected possible to do
>>>> (obtain) with AV1 de-/encoding on my existing 64bit
>>>> hardware:
>>>>
>>>> 1) laptop 2018: Dell XPS 13-9370: quad core
>>>> i7-8550U CPU (8. gen Kabylake) and Intel UHD Graphics
>>>>
>>>> 2) WS infinity: MSI Z170A mobo: quad core i7-6700K
>>>> CPU (6. gen Skylake), NVIDIA GeForce GT-730 graphics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A budget friendly first "AV1 HW upgrade" of the
>>>> workstation 2) if possible, would be to add a new GPU
>>>> as Intel Arc A380.
>>>> But the question is if this will work at all on that
>>>> much older (2015) Skylake platform with i7-6700K CPU?
>>>> I've seen CPU bottlenecks has been mentioned and that
>>>> Arc A380 is targeted at newer generations CPU ...
>>>
>>> Extracted from the first wikipedia reference below about
>>> Intel Alchemist GPUs:
>>>
>>> * Featuring 8 Xe-cores, the*A380 supports PCI Express
>>> 4.0* and has a total board power (TBP) of 75W. The
>>> graphics card is equipped with 6GB GDDR6 memory and
>>> a graphics memory interface of 96 bits, providing a
>>> memory bandwidth of 186GB/s.
>>> * Bus interface A380: PCIe 4.0 x8 and for >=A580: PCIe
>>> 4.0 x16
>>>
>>> That is, the keyword here seems to be PCIe 4.0 bus speed
>>> as a requirement to utilize the Arc A380 GPU for HWA AV1
>>> encoding (maybe also for other GPUs?)
>>>
>>>
>>> well, despite so much time spend looking at dev process for
>>> mesa3d I still do not know full details and media encoder
>>> process. But isn't it like putting uncompressed frame in
>>> vram (as long as you have enough of it - so probably n raw
>>> frames between keyframe ideally?) let media engine chw on
>>> it, pull resulting compressed bitstream out of vram via
>>> pci-express?
>>>
>>> So I speculate pcie bandwidth in itself will only matter if
>>> you compress both big frame size and long keyframes, so dma
>>> engine on card must constantly pump new raw frame data via bus.
>>>
>>> I saw some mention of big (resizeable) BAR as requirement
>>> for good performance, but opengl/vulkan IMO a bit different
>>> because they send often big amount of tiny objects
>>> (vertices) via bus for each frame. But may be default 256 Mb
>>> in size bar feels a bit small for sending like 1 second of
>>> 25 4k frames (300 mb/s)?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Nothing would be better than that A380 does work with older PCIe
>> 3.0 motherboards and CPUs and without too much decrease in
>> performance.
>
> Then I got the following reply to my support request from ASRock
> TSD regarding
> https://www.asrock.com/Graphics-Card/Intel/Intel%20Arc%20A380%20Challenger%20ITX%206GB%20OC/index.asp
>
> Skylake platform does not match the system minimum requirements.
> Please refer to the below link for further information.
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000091128/graphics.html
>
> well, if you can get card for brief (two weeks?) testing and return if
> it really does not work - it will be better than leaning on official
> answer, IMO.
>
> after all, Intel, like any company tries to sell you a bridge .....
Yes, they always want to sell new hardware and do not want to support
older boxes longer than required.
So I may give it try on the new year. The point is to get av1 encoding
to faster with gpu hwaccel, even if it seems to be limited to about 75%
speed:
Today I also got confirmed from MSI technical support:
BIOS of Z170-A Pro MB doesn’t have Resizable (Re-Size) BAR support,
the mainboard doesn’t support Intel Arc A380 GPU.
For the MB that support Resizable BAR(Re-Size BAR), please find the
Intel/AMD chipse
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/MSIIsReadyToSupportResizableBARReSizeBARForNVIDIAGeForceRTX30SeriesGPUs121336
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> I've also extracted from the following two articles:
>>
>> Intel Arc Desktop Graphics Card Gets Requirement List:
>> Resizable BAR Enabled & Support on 10th Gen and Above CPUs
>>
>> https://wccftech.com/intel-arc-desktop-graphics-card-gets-requirement-list-resizable-bar-enabled-support-on-10th-gen-and-above-cpus/
>> /We are supporting Intel platforms with resizable BAR and
>> will add support for AMD platforms with Smart Access Memory
>> as Intel Arc graphics cards become available for sale as
>> components. Motherboard requirement:/
>>
>> * Full-size PCIe 3.0 (or newer) x16 slot
>> * Resizeable BAR
>>
>>
>> Arc A770 Loses Up to 24 Percent Performance Without Resizable
>> Bar | Tom's Hardware
>>
>> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/arc-a770-loses-25-percent-performance-without-resizable-bar
>>
>> * Arc isn't for older systems.
>> * Intel has revitalized the midrange graphics card market
>> with the company's latest Arc A770, which will make its
>> way into the list of best graphics cards. Starting at
>> $329, the Arc Alchemist graphics card brings GeForce RTX
>> 3060-like performance to the table with Resizable BAR
>> (ReBAR) enabled, of course. But, without ReBAR or similar
>> technology like Smart Access Memory (SAM), it's another
>> story.
>>
>> * With Arc, Intel recommends potential consumers make sure
>> their systems support ReBAR or SAM.
>>
>> * In addition to testing ReBAR, TechPowerUp also evaluated
>> whether the speed of the expansion slot impacts the Arc
>> A770's performance. As a reminder, the Arc A770 comes
>> with a conventional PCIe 4.0 x16 interface. However, the
>> tests revealed that PCIe 3.0 is still plenty for the Arc
>> A770 as long as ReBAR is enabled. Furthermore,
>> TechPowerUp only recorded a performance difference of up
>> to 2% between PCIe 3.0 and PCIe 4.0, so ReBAR support is
>> more important than the expansion slot. Regarding ReBAR,
>> only Intel 10th Generation Comet Lake
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-comet-lake-s-cores-53-ghz-high-power-better-pricing>,
>> 11th Generation Rocket Lake
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-11th-gen-rocket-lake-s-specifications-pricing>,
>> and 12th Generation Alder Lake
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/features/intel-shares-alder-lake-pricing-specs-and-gaming-performance>
>> processors support that feature. As for AMD, SAM support
>> is only present on Ryzen 3000
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-third-gen-ryzen-7nm-launch-intel-cpu,39449.html>
>> Zen 2 chips and newer. So while Arc's performance looks
>> attractive and priced fairly, its requirements
>> effectively lock out users with older systems. Arc also
>> demands Windows 10 20H2 or Windows 11
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/tag/windows-11> as the
>> operating system, so Windows 7 users, who are reluctant
>> to upgrade, are also out of the picture.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1165048.html?sid=1b9518b86afdcd1fa5e7710f16cd6893
>>>
>>> not exactly about av1 in ffmpeg 6.1 but lists some components
>>> you need for vaapi/qsv encoder on Arc 380 - also from dmesg
>>> resizeable bar support is not essential ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> gpus today use their own memory paging system, so may be
>>> this add additional restriction on how fast you can push
>>> frames to them. ....
>>>
>>> Also, windows and Linux drivers might differ ( I bet most
>>> reviews are from windows land).
>>>
>>> May be someone will post linux review of this particular
>>> aspect of Arc graphics, either video or text ...
>>>
>>> If this Suse Studio service still works may be you can
>>> compose your own live image with all components required to
>>> test that and walk to some offline place where you can
>>> testdrive new card .... { If weather feels favourable enough
>>> - we have around -14 C airtemp so I and my dog prefer short
>>> dashes around and back to warm place shortly}
>>>
>>>
>>> My existing Skylake WS 2) above has PCie 3.0 only.
>>>
>>> PCIe 4.0
>>> https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express
>>> https://www.techreviewer.com/learn-about-tech/what-is-pcie-40/
>>>
>>> Motherboards Support PCIe 4.0
>>> https://www.makeuseof.com/best-budget-pcie-4-motherboards/
>>> https://www.techreviewer.com/tech-answers/which-motherboards-support-pcie-40/
>>>
>>> Maybe also information of interest for WS building will
>>> be clarified within a week, when Intel release their new
>>> "Meteor Lake, Core Ultra mobile processors(?)
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Lake
>>>
>>>>
>>>> References:
>>>> AV1 Encoding on a Budget: The Intel Arc A380 Approach
>>>> https://medium.com/@contact_45426/av1-encoding-on-a-budget-the-intel-arc-a380-approach-d72367f2f349
>>>> https://history-computer.com/intel-arc-a380-full-review-of-intels-entry-level-gpu/
>>>>
>>>> AV1 fixed-function hardware encoder is included in
>>>> Alchemist GPUs as part of the Intel Quick Sync Video core.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Arc#Alchemist
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1#Hardware
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video#Hardware_decoding_and_encoding
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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