I attach the pdf and odt file to put in the git repository. It is the union of my and Phyllis' writings. It is for new users to compare the workflow they are used to with the one in CinGG. I created the document in odt because it is a work-in-progress that everyone can contribute to. I am not familiar with Adobe Premiere Pro or other NLEs, so I may have written inaccuracies and errors. If you can revise and improve the document, please do me a favor.
Thanks for the document. Question: I noticed the Sketcher plugin. Can this do animation? For example a lower two thirds title animation? -- Stefan
If you intend to use Sketcher plugin to animate something written with the Title plugin or imported from Inkscape, etc; no, it is not possible. Sketcher is only for drawing lines on the canvas, with which to compose figures that can then be translated, rotated and resized, and finally animated with keyframes. See to the minutes 23:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBt9rkg7i8E
On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 1:53:42 PM CEST, Andrea paz wrote:
If you intend to use Sketcher plugin to animate something written with the Title plugin or imported from Inkscape, etc; no, it is not possible. Sketcher is only for drawing lines on the canvas, with which to compose figures that can then be translated, rotated and resized, and finally animated with keyframes. See to the minutes 23:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBt9rkg7i8E
So basically you could do lower two thirds, but you would be forced to use keyframes, for which the current 'edit' interfaces in Cinelerra is poor. Hence it is possible to see which properties may change but not editing this easily. I don't mean a rather complex node based editor as I have seen in a video on Resolve or swimming lanes editor like Blender. -- Stefan
Andrea, this is really nice and so well formatted. Have not read it all yet and want to do so more thoroughly. And I am still going through the Manual to see if there are other hints in there that could be added. On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 1:58 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I attach the pdf and odt file to put in the git repository. It is the union of my and Phyllis' writings. It is for new users to compare the workflow they are used to with the one in CinGG. I created the document in odt because it is a work-in-progress that everyone can contribute to. I am not familiar with Adobe Premiere Pro or other NLEs, so I may have written inaccuracies and errors. If you can revise and improve the document, please do me a favor. -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Second revision of the text. I added the multicam and a few sentences to remind people that CinGG is based on tracks and not clips.
Andrea, I have thoroughly read this and have made just a few typo corrections but am not finished yet so am not sending it back yet. Am confused about this statement and want to correct it here, but not sure what it means. It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean? Thanks, Phyllis On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 12:21 PM Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
Second revision of the text. I added the multicam and a few sentences to remind people that CinGG is based on tracks and not clips.
Also, in "Shortcuts", a change was made quite some time ago that BOTH "z" and "Ctrl-z" will "undo". You can see this shortcut stated on the Edit pulldown. I will delete this in my local copy so as not to have 2 people doing different changes at the same time before sending it back. On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 12:37 PM Phyllis Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
Andrea, I have thoroughly read this and have made just a few typo corrections but am not finished yet so am not sending it back yet. Am confused about this statement and want to correct it here, but not sure what it means. It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean? Thanks, Phyllis
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 12:21 PM Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
Second revision of the text. I added the multicam and a few sentences to remind people that CinGG is based on tracks and not clips.
A few more items for you to decide if they should be included or not (see attached) and need to be reworded better to fit. Also, I will send to just you the .odt where I have only made a few typo corrections. There are maybe 2 more items that I am looking at that could potentially be included also. On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 2:39 PM Phyllis Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
Also, in "Shortcuts", a change was made quite some time ago that BOTH "z" and "Ctrl-z" will "undo". You can see this shortcut stated on the Edit pulldown. I will delete this in my local copy so as not to have 2 people doing different changes at the same time before sending it back.
On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 12:37 PM Phyllis Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
Andrea, I have thoroughly read this and have made just a few typo corrections but am not finished yet so am not sending it back yet. Am confused about this statement and want to correct it here, but not sure what it means. It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean? Thanks, Phyllis
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 12:21 PM Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
Second revision of the text. I added the multicam and a few sentences to remind people that CinGG is based on tracks and not clips.
By now my mental abilities have greatly decayed, so what I write and say must be carefully corrected. Sorry. I didn't remember CTRL+Z anymore; thanks for the correction.
It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean?
From what I understand, in CinGG they count the tracks; the clips are simply "pasted" on top of the tracks. When you select or cut a region (or apply filters and keyframes), it is the active track that is affected. If there are also edits in that region they will also be affected, but only because they are on the track and not because the actions taken affect them exclusively (as is the case in PP). Another example: if you select a region the selection affects the whole timeline (the stack of tracks) while if you apply an effect it affects only one track and not the whole timeline. I appeal to everyone: is what I said correct? What are the actions that affect the entire timeline, those that affect individual tracks, and finally those that affect edits? It would be nice to get clarity on these points (at least for me, maybe for you there is no ambiguity).
I have integrated your odt and script and made other corrections.
пн, 11 сент. 2023 г., 17:42 Andrea paz via Cin <[email protected]>:
By now my mental abilities have greatly decayed, so what I write and say must be carefully corrected. Sorry. I didn't remember CTRL+Z anymore; thanks for the correction.
It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean?
From what I understand, in CinGG they count the tracks; the clips are simply "pasted" on top of the tracks. When you select or cut a region (or apply filters and keyframes), it is the active track that is affected. If there are also edits in that region they will also be affected, but only because they are on the track and not because the actions taken affect them exclusively (as is the case in PP). Another example: if you select a region the selection affects the whole timeline (the stack of tracks) while if you apply an effect it affects only one track and not the whole timeline. I appeal to everyone: is what I said correct? What are the actions that affect the entire timeline, those that affect individual tracks, and finally those that affect edits? It would be nice to get clarity on these points (at least for me, maybe for you there is no ambiguity).
I have integrated your odt and script and made other corrections.
in pdf version I see "There are ways provided in the manual for wayt to help for smaller/slower computer." what is wayt? --
Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
пн, 11 сент. 2023 г., 18:16 Andrew Randrianasulu <[email protected]>:
пн, 11 сент. 2023 г., 17:42 Andrea paz via Cin <[email protected]
:
By now my mental abilities have greatly decayed, so what I write and say must be carefully corrected. Sorry. I didn't remember CTRL+Z anymore; thanks for the correction.
It is in the "Cutting a Region" paragraph and reads "Note that we reason about the tracks and not the clips." What does this mean?
From what I understand, in CinGG they count the tracks; the clips are simply "pasted" on top of the tracks. When you select or cut a region (or apply filters and keyframes), it is the active track that is affected. If there are also edits in that region they will also be affected, but only because they are on the track and not because the actions taken affect them exclusively (as is the case in PP). Another example: if you select a region the selection affects the whole timeline (the stack of tracks) while if you apply an effect it affects only one track and not the whole timeline. I appeal to everyone: is what I said correct? What are the actions that affect the entire timeline, those that affect individual tracks, and finally those that affect edits? It would be nice to get clarity on these points (at least for me, maybe for you there is no ambiguity).
I have integrated your odt and script and made other corrections.
in pdf version I see
"There are ways provided in the manual for wayt to help for smaller/slower computer."
what is wayt?
also, may be note specific versions of programs just in case something will change at least on Adobe end? Also, my favourite "you drag media handle at edit's end and it behaves unintuitively" was not included :) (may be other editors behave the same?)
--
Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
My 2 cents. Please, Keep in mind that my English is very bad. ===================================== The way how Cinelerra-GG use the clips in the Timeline is different by other NLEs like Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Shotcut, and a little Lightworks. In Cinelerra-GG the Timeline is track based while in the other NLEs the Timeline is clip based. In other NLE, when you add an effect to a clip in the Timeline that effect is linked (embedded) with the clip; moving the clip forward or backward in the Timeline, its effect will move together with the clip. If keyframes had been added on that effect, they will move in accordance with the clip. To see the clip's effects these NLEs use a kind a form where you can add or delete the keyframes. In Cinelerra-GG, you can add an effect to all the track or a selected area (section, region). Adding an effect only to the area of that clip , you can move the effect together withe the clip using "Drag and Drop editing mode" feature. If keyframes had been added on that effect, they will move in accordance with the clip, but only if they are within the clip area. When you add a lot of effects to a clip, or a some clips, in the same track, that track will increase its height; this could lead to confusion on large Project. =====================================
What are the actions that affect the entire timeline, those that affect individual tracks? It could be by appling the same LUT, for example.
IgorBeg
I have incorporated IgorBeg's excellent description, so I attach the fourth revision.
On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 12:37 PM Andrea paz via Cin <[email protected]> wrote:
Also, my favourite "you drag media handle at edit's end and it behaves unintuitively" was not included :) (may be other editors behave the same?) I didn't quite understand this point; can you explain more? (Or write the part to be added)
No, it was just when cursor becomes lef-t or right-facing b/w arrow near end of edit in d & drop mode. I was surprized by moving right handle to the left and seeing whole media shrink. Moving with middle mouse button restored my expectations (and this is changeable behavior IIRC). What was more strange: if I double-click on small piece of media just loaded (one audio/one video track, with timeline set so it look just small piece) - sometimes on first drag or on second drag cingg freeze eating 100% of cone CPU core and not drawing anything in timeline/main window. .
-- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
I added Phyllip's cues and fixed some sentences. I introduced "comments" where I made changes, so they are better identifiable (not visible in pdf). I am not convinced by what was written in the "effects" section. In short, it would be better to rewrite it with more detail and accuracy. Suggestions? @IgorBeg You have already helped me with these topics, could you correct my description? The description I made in the Multicam section does not satisfy me. Suggestions for writing it better? @Stefan You had already mentioned the multican; is it possible for you to correct and improve my writing? I would prefer not to put the author, but see how it looks best to you.
Andrea, it is your decision to include or exclude the author -- and since you prefer to exclude, I agree. I like your addition in the Disclaimer section. I have not thoroughly re-read everything yet, but noted the section you added on rotoscoping which makes sense to me. The section on Multicam on CinGG seems to mostly discuss time/synchronization but not the Mixers, which is described in the manual, section 6.7. As you mentioned in your last email, it is a little confusing to me. Will wait to see if IgorB or anyone submits any changes before I see if I have any more changes. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:59 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I added Phyllip's cues and fixed some sentences. I introduced "comments" where I made changes, so they are better identifiable (not visible in pdf).
I am not convinced by what was written in the "effects" section. In short, it would be better to rewrite it with more detail and accuracy. Suggestions? @IgorBeg You have already helped me with these topics, could you correct my description?
The description I made in the Multicam section does not satisfy me. Suggestions for writing it better? @Stefan You had already mentioned the multican; is it possible for you to correct and improve my writing?
I would prefer not to put the author, but see how it looks best to you. -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
To me, it seems good. I remember to all of you that We have a Manual. I don't know how many people read the Document but the Manual is well, enough, documented, I think. For a beginner, using Cinelerra-GG is not simple but there are just as many programs that are difficult to use withouth the help of the Manuals and videos. This Compare Document is good but I think that an User that used Adobe Premiere after some clicks and watching some tutorials She/He can start quite smoothly. And using Cinelerra-GG, no registrations or licenses (with On Line check) are required. IgorBeg Il 15/09/2023 16:59, Andrea paz via Cin ha scritto:
I am not convinced by what was written in the "effects" section. In short, it would be better to rewrite it with more detail and accuracy. Suggestions? @IgorBeg You have already helped me with these topics, could you correct my description?
Thank you IgorBeg. I am a little confused because I can't get the Cut&Paste mode to work. If I select a region "x" works but not "c". "v" never works. I think I am wrong in something...
Mmh... it sounds strange. Could you do a screencast, please? (I am afraid I will be able to answer tomorrow,... sorry) Il 16/09/2023 09:51, Andrea paz ha scritto:
Thank you IgorBeg. I am a little confused because I can't get the Cut&Paste mode to work. If I select a region "x" works but not "c". "v" never works. I think I am wrong in something...
Andrea, in Cut&Paste mode, "c" copies a highlighted area into Cinelerra's cut buffer and you will not see anything change on the screen. The "v" pastes what is in Cinelerra's cut buffer ONTO A BLANK SPACE on the timeline -- you have to create a blank space of any size to put the cut buffer. Highlighting an area or inserting a blank space(s) allows the v to insert the cut buffer. On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 1:51 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
Thank you IgorBeg. I am a little confused because I can't get the Cut&Paste mode to work. If I select a region "x" works but not "c". "v" never works. I think I am wrong in something... -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 10:21 AM Igor BEGHETTO via Cin <[email protected]> wrote:
To me, it seems good. I remember to all of you that We have a Manual. I don't know how many people read the Document but the Manual is well, enough, documented, I think. For a beginner, using Cinelerra-GG is not simple but there are just as many programs that are difficult to use withouth the help of the Manuals and videos.
well, never underestimate how intimidating 500 pp manual can be :)
This Compare Document is good but I think that an User that used Adobe Premiere after some clicks and watching some tutorials She/He can start quite smoothly. And using Cinelerra-GG, no registrations or licenses (with On Line check) are required.
IgorBeg
Il 15/09/2023 16:59, Andrea paz via Cin ha scritto:
I am not convinced by what was written in the "effects" section. In short, it would be better to rewrite it with more detail and accuracy. Suggestions? @IgorBeg You have already helped me with these topics, could you correct my description? -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Andrea, more thorough reading of workflow_05 feedback. PLAYBACK section: The following statement reads funny to me, but maybe that is just me as I am confused by the "Count on" "Count on "multimedia cache" and, if possible, hardware acceleration of decoding." ROTOSCOPING section: ?? should "with rotbrush" be "rotobrush" ?? (rotbrush is split into rot- on 1 line and brush on the next) EFFECTS section: There should be a space after the comma at the spot "Cut and Paste mode,via" MULTICAM section: Because I do not know how Multicam works in PP, it is difficult for me to make a correlation in CinGG. But I think, the CinGG part in this section should differeniate between "timecode synchronization" and actual "mixers" as they are very different in presentation, but not so much in execution. However, since there are 2 different manual referenced spots in that section, the user will most likely figure it out. TITLER section: I do not know if this is true or not, but Stefan "implied" that other NLEs have "powerpoint-like" capability with the Titler. If PP does have this, perhaps adding a line to the PP portion like "There are several features that are similar to how powerpoint works." -- ONLY IF this really is a difference. MOTION GRAPHICS section: "prevalantly" should be spelled "prevalently" And, of course, delete the Author line at the beginning if you want to. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:59 AM Andrea paz via Cin < [email protected]> wrote:
I added Phyllip's cues and fixed some sentences. I introduced "comments" where I made changes, so they are better identifiable (not visible in pdf).
I am not convinced by what was written in the "effects" section. In short, it would be better to rewrite it with more detail and accuracy. Suggestions? @IgorBeg You have already helped me with these topics, could you correct my description?
The description I made in the Multicam section does not satisfy me. Suggestions for writing it better? @Stefan You had already mentioned the multican; is it possible for you to correct and improve my writing?
I would prefer not to put the author, but see how it looks best to you. -- Cin mailing list [email protected] https://lists.cinelerra-gg.org/mailman/listinfo/cin
Cut&Paste mode works normally, now. I don't know what I was doing wrong.... I have changed the section on multicam, I hope it is clearer and more accurate. I would say that now, after your revision, it can be published. We can continue to add contributions over time, if they come. My errors: COUNT ON: bad translation; I intend "relying on, rely on, uses" ROTO-BRUSH (or roto-paint) MULTICAM: I have rewritten some parts. See if it seems clearer/correct to you. I think the "powerpoint work" is what I referred to as VECTOR GRAPHICS. Sorry, Phyllis and thank you.
This is quite good in my opinion and I have added both the .pdf and .odt to the download area. I will add a line to the Manual to suggest to look at that in the Help area since I have a few other minor manual changes to make. Thanks goes out to Andrea ! https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Workflow.pdf I would say that now, after your revision, it can be
published. We can continue to add contributions over time, if they
come.
Great idea to put a link in the help section. Another place where new users could read the link is at the beginning of the manual, at the end of "Innovative New Features" and before "Chapters Overview." I propose the following note: \paragraph{NOTE:} In \CGG{} the editing workflow is different from the workflow used by other NLEs. It is less intuitive and requires us to think first about what we want to achieve. In fact, it is a workflow based on the tracks in their entirety and not on individual clips. See \href{https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Workflow.pdf}{workflow is different!} for a comparison with the Adobe Premiere Pro workflow. A mention can also be put in "FAQs, Known Problems and Workarounds." For example: More workarounds can be found \href{https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Workflow.pdf}{here}.
Andrea, I did not want to ask you to do more work, but could you make the changes you suggested? and gzip the changed .tex files? -- I could not get a good feeling of where to put it in the Help section? Also, Andrew mentioned the "TODO" in the Window.tex files. I am not sure who put those there, but I know it was not me so we should either "do" them or delete the TODO if no one plans on doing them. On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 3:03 PM Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
Great idea to put a link in the help section. Another place where new users could read the link is at the beginning of the manual, at the end of "Innovative New Features" and before "Chapters Overview." I propose the following note:
\paragraph{NOTE:} In \CGG{} the editing workflow is different from the workflow used by other NLEs. It is less intuitive and requires us to think first about what we want to achieve. In fact, it is a workflow based on the tracks in their entirety and not on individual clips. See \href{https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Workflow.pdf}{workflow is different!} for a comparison with the Adobe Premiere Pro workflow.
A mention can also be put in "FAQs, Known Problems and Workarounds." For example:
More workarounds can be found \href{https://cinelerra-gg.org/download/Workflow.pdf}{here}.
I added references to the pdf. In Windows.tex I removed the first TODO, but I saw that there are others. I will see if I can go through them properly.
Checked into GIT along with Developer.tex minor change removing libwebp from non-upgrade list. Not sure why I was having such a problem finding places it put the Workflow.pdf link, but Andrea got it righ. On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 3:42 PM Andrea paz <[email protected]> wrote:
I added references to the pdf. In Windows.tex I removed the first TODO, but I saw that there are others. I will see if I can go through them properly.
participants (5)
-
Andrea paz -
Andrew Randrianasulu -
Igor BEGHETTO -
Phyllis Smith -
Stefan de Konink